Belit, she's a crazy wench

[Supplement Four]

Belit, Conan's crazy wench, but she bucks so good, he's on top of it.

(From Buck Cherry's song, edited for prime time and the Conan universe.)

I'm reading, for the first time, Queen of the Black Coast. I've tried to stay away from spoilers, but who can be interested in Conan and not know that Belit was one of the big loves of Conan's life (Valeria being the other...maybe his wife when he's King)?

Don't spoil anything for me, as I'm not done reading the story yet. But, I'm just not getting "love of his life" out of reading this story. It's a very good story. I love Howard's prose. And, this story is interesting. Different. But, some deep seated heart wrenching love of Conan's, I'm not getting at all.

Conan seems to be a bit lost in his life. He deserted from the Turanian army and then went wayward for a time, thieving himself from town to town and returning home only to find that he really doesn't belong there anymore.

Now, he's back in the Hyborian lands again, and back in trouble. Whether its his fault or not, the authorities are after him.

And, he now hooks up with a pirate, and a right deadly one, to boot.

This Belit is crazy. She's a real wench. What I'm getting out of her is that she cares naught for anything else except Conan, and now, whether she's convinced herself, or whether she really feels it, she's crazy co-dependent on Conan.

In the story, I'm at the part where the mysterious flying ape-bat thing, whatever it is, has smashed the water barrels on the ship, while Belit and Conan and the ship's crew are all gawking at all the jewels they've found in the crypt.

Belit seems little concerned that they no longer have water. She's completely focussed on the loot.

Conan seems to be riding with Belit...because it's where he ended up. I don't sense any real love out of him. He's just "there", stranded in his life, maybe feeling like he's going nowhere, wayward, slinging his sword, cracking some heads, maybe doing this to stave off depression.

Belit seems to care little for her black warriors, too. She suspected a trap on the loot cask, so she made up a tale about a snake in the grass, causing Conan to come to her aid, while the black warriors opening the cask were killed with the cask's opening trap.

She suspected something like that would happen, but rather than warn everybody and figure a way to open the cask safely, she let her warriors perish in the trap without saying a word.

And, what of Conan's code? Does this seem like the mighty barbarian we all know and love? He's a real pirate here, murdering people, stealing from them, throwing their carcasses into the deep blue sea.

Would Conan let his companions, especially warriors under his command, die like that? Would he respect, much less love, someone who would?

I wonder if I'll have better answers to these questions once I finish the story.

Right now, I'm thinking Conan is just a wayward soul, lost, no direction, mixed up in a bad crowd, and in lust with a woman that's bad for him.

 

[zozotroll]

If you have read "Red Nails" you know that the love story parts are pretty glossed over. REH just was not that interested. So we just have to take his word for it.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Would Conan let his companions, especially warriors under his command, die like that? Would he respect, much less love, someone who would?

Robert E. Howard's Conan would. L. Sprague de Camp & Lin Carter's Conan, not so much. Roy Thomas' Conan, not so much either.

Reading the REH with the pastiches, you will quickly see the difference in behaviour for Conan.

 

[Demetrio]

Someone, I forget who - it may have been Flatscan - pointed out that Conan is rather uncharacteristically callous when under Belit's spell (or thumb). Not to say that he is a saint the rest of the time but he's more than usually ruthless in Queen of the Black Coast.

So I think his behaviour is in character, it's just he's in love and so something that he might have regarded as a rather shabby ploy if practised on his Khauranian guardsmen or Afghuli followers, passes without comment.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Interesting SF, you mentioned Conan could be susceptible to depression. Ive never really thought about that. I know hes all sullen eyed and stuff, but anyone else think Conan gets bouts of depression?

 

[Demetrio]

Didn't Howard say something about 'gigantic melancholies'...?

 

[Supplement Four]

Belit obviously doesn't care about her black warriors. I wonder why they worship her. They seem fanatical about her. Maybe that will be explained by the end of the story (haven't had time to sit down and finish the last 10 pages or so).

Does Conan feel the same?

Is it an example of some of the "racism" that some people say is in Conan's works (to be honest, I see little of it in what I've read of his works so far...but different people see different things).

Does Conan think the blacks are expendable? Less than human?

I know Conan has had black friends before, but, as Vincent pointed out, that was in the pastiche stories. Juma comes to mind, from The City of Skulls.

Thoughts to ponder.

 

[Diabolus]

It's not that long of a story by Crom. Go finish it, then we can talk.

 

[Demetrio]

In one story - Vale of Lost Women, I think - Conan states quite categorically that he wouldn't leave a white woman in the hands of black men.

I think Howard had the rather common 'casual' racism of his time, but in addition he talks of 'degenerate races' (to be fair these are races of all colours) and so forth, something that makes me raise an eyebrow at least.

Let me say that racist overtones, undertones, mid-tones or no, I think the stories do pretty well as stories, one may find some of the underlying details bizarre or distasteful but I don't think he set out to preach about racial superiority or anything like that.

His main obsession seems to be the unfashionable (and slightly silly) notion of what might be called the 'Uncivilised Superman' - that civilisation is necessarily decadent and weak and more virile cultures will always supplant it because their men are superior physically and in moral fibre.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Interesting SF, you mentioned Conan could be susceptible to depression. Ive never really thought about that. I know hes all sullen eyed and stuff, but anyone else think Conan gets bouts of depression?

Yes. He is a described by Howard as a man with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth. Howard doesn't much go into the melancholies, but you can see a massive hint of that in the drafts of Phoenix on the Sword IIRC (the depression scene was cut in the published version).

Makes one wonder if he was manic-depressive.

 

[Demetrio]

I wondered if he meant melancholies in a more poetic way, like 'lots of bad things happen to him'. I think the depressive sense kind of fits more given its coupling with 'gigantic mirths' but again, it could merely mean that he was given to brooding rather than a depressive as such.

 

[Evil_Trevor]

The Conan stories don't really intend to be man-booker material, nor did Howard write them as we read them. Written for pulp-magazine style publication and aimed at a young male audience there is no reason for Howard to plumb the emotional and psychological depths of the character. It wouldn't have sold as well.

I recall that in 'Queen of the Black coast' it casualy mentions that Conan spends years with Belit. We can 'conclude' that Conan is affected over this time period and we see him at the ending of this 'chapter' of his life.

I take the stories as they are, enjoy them as they were meant to be and don't worry to much over the stuff Howard, and later writers, left out.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Interesting SF, you mentioned Conan could be susceptible to depression. Ive never really thought about that. I know hes all sullen eyed and stuff, but anyone else think Conan gets bouts of depression?

Yes. He is a described by Howard as a man with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth. Howard doesn't much go into the melancholies, but you can see a massive hint of that in the drafts of Phoenix on the Sword IIRC (the depression scene was cut in the published version).

Makes one wonder if he was manic-depressive.

You know, I never thought of Conans 'gigantic melancholies' as anything like depression. I suppose its becasue Howard doesnt really dwell on them. I just though of them as being similar to what working class guys get in the pub after a few drinks. You know, getting all maudlin.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

In one story - Vale of Lost Women, I think - Conan states quite categorically that he wouldn't leave a white woman in the hands of black men.

I think Howard had the rather common 'casual' racism of his time, but in addition he talks of 'degenerate races' (to be fair these are races of all colours) and so forth, something that makes me raise an eyebrow at least.

Let me say that racist overtones, undertones, mid-tones or no, I think the stories do pretty well as stories, one may find some of the underlying details bizarre or distasteful but I don't think he set out to preach about racial superiority or anything like that.

His main obsession seems to be the unfashionable (and slightly silly) notion of what might be called the 'Uncivilised Superman' - that civilisation is necessarily decadent and weak and more virile cultures will always supplant it because their men are superior physically and in moral fibre.

Hey Demetrio, this post has possibilities for massive discussion! If I didnt know better, I'd think you were trying to goad me into some mega-posting. I dont need much prompting.

 

[Azgulor]

Belit obviously doesn't care about her black warriors. I wonder why they worship her. They seem fanatical about her. Maybe that will be explained by the end of the story (haven't had time to sit down and finish the last 10 pages or so).

Does Conan feel the same?

Is it an example of some of the "racism" that some people say is in Conan's works (to be honest, I see little of it in what I've read of his works so far...but different people see different things).

Does Conan think the blacks are expendable? Less than human?

I know Conan has had black friends before, but, as Vincent pointed out, that was in the pastiche stories. Juma comes to mind, from The City of Skulls.

Thoughts to ponder.

This was my thought as well. Thus far, it's the only Conan story I've read where a racism claim could be made (I haven't read all of the REH Conan stuff yet). It's the only story I've read thus far where Conan views his men as tools rather than comrades-in-arms. As the story FFWDs through years of sailing with Belit, I would expect him to view them as "his troops" rather than cannon fodder.

Potential Spoiler Disclaimer for the OP












There is another story, the name of which escapes me, where Conan is the leader of a tribe of black warriors. He effectively throws the tribe and allies over for the opportunity to save/take a white woman. (It's one of the green stone city stories if memory serves...)

When I read that story, however, it seemed as though Conan's distaste/lack of respect was cultural rather than racial. If I look at Kush and the Black Coast in my Road of Kings sourcebook, you've got Set worship (big Conan no-no), cannibalism, shamanism (rather than a proper god like Crom). Per the religion section: "Shamanistic beliefs co-exist with ancestor worship and worship of local gods and demons."

Anyhow, when looking at the Conan saga beyond that one story, it appears more cultural-bias than racial-bias to me. It's tough to argue that Conan viewed Belit's pirates as little more than tools, however.

There's another story (name escapes me again) where Conan seeks to turn a crew against it's captain. The crew is little more than a means to an end for Conan. It's one of the stories that really portrayed Conan as calculating and self-serving.

 

[Demetrio]

I think it's possible that Conan is in fact bewitched, as in ensorcelled, by Belit. And her crew may be too. They are, to a man, utterly accepting of her commands and Conan is content to follow her lead througout, which is very unusual for him... to say the least.

Even if not (and I mention it only as a possibility, not that I think it likely that he was ensorcelled), Belit certainly has a hold on him, probably strong enough to mean he's less 'honourable' than usual.

In The Vale of Lost Women Conan says

'I am not such a dog as to leave a white woman in the clutches of a black man'

and

'I'd take you away from Bajujh, simply because of the colour of your hide'

which are pretty explicitly racial rather than cultural remarks.

 

[David St-Michel]

I do admit that I consider Belit to be a bit of a mystery to me.

It's clear from the get-go that her crew consider her a goddess of some sort. And when she does her dance of seduction when she ends up naked and on her knees before Conan, they all just stare like it's the most natural thing ever.

I don't see Conan as being particularly callous in this story concerning the people that work beneath himself and Belit. I remember HER treating them like garbage, but I don't remember Conan himself being that much of an a-hole.

And let's not forget something : Conan is, first and foremost, a savage. He is a killer of men. A survivor. A tiger who walks with the sheep of softer, civilized countries. He hates Picts with a passion that dates back a few hundred generations. Conan despises blacks and considers them little more then savages. He'd happily kill any Vanir that would cross his path if they gave him a reason to. The folk of Nemedia are -NOT- his friends.

Conan is an anti-hero. When he DOES act like a hero, he does it without thought. And usually it's because the main danger also threatens him, so he HAS to act. I believe that it's in the Pheonix on the Sword when he's chatting with Prospero, he says something like :

"I dreamed of becoming king. But I did not dream far enough."

That line, for me, says it all. Conan wanted to be king for himself, first and foremost. He explains in The Hour of the Dragon, I believe, that he stayed king because the old king (Numedides, I believe?) was a disgusting tyrant. But he didn't do it for the people. He did it for himself.

I personally see Conan as a selfish man. A good man, perhaps, but a selfish man. What he does, he does for himself first and foremost. When he takes care of his minions and assorted mooks, he does it because he dosen't want them to revolt or turn on him. Not because he actually cares for them.

At least, it's what I've seen up until now. But I've only read Howard's stories of the man.

 

[Demetrio]

His attitude to women rather puts a different slant on that. With women he is chivalrous and often ridiculously generous. He frequently puts himself at huge risk to save them from what is often their own folly.

Also he is stubbornly loyal to comrades in arms. He sticks with those who have helped him and will avenge them at risk to himself if they fall.

He's not in the least selfish in those regards.

And my remarks above apply purely to the Howard stories, not pastiche.

 

[Malcadon]

QotBC is one of my most favorite Conan yarns. It is the most quintessential stories, in that it get deep into Conan's spiritual mind-set. "Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content." sounds a hell of a lot better then the rehashed movie quote "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women."

 

[David St-Michel]

That much is absolutely true, Demetrio.

However, I don't recall him ever having that many comrade-in-arms. He has a few, no question. But I don't consider him a "people person".

And yeah I agree with you again, Conan is a total gentleman when it comes to women. And that really keeps me at a loss.

I mean, let's go back to the Belit example. It's obvious she cares 0% about the mooks that work for her. So Conan would be in a bit of a jam ; on one side, he takes care of his henchmen. On the other, Belit's his chick. So what is a barbarian to do?