Beams

[C.H.A.D.]

There is nothing affecting a beam in space. Assuming you have a targetting system capable of making a straight line your movement or the other ships would make little difference (the speed of light thing).

Even assuming your sights are perfect on a rifle there is wind, gravity, and the target's movement (depending on what one is shooting at) will obviously affect the shot. In a windless, gravity free enviroment movement would still be a factor for a projectile (not travelling at the speed of light).

Once again, I don't see how one can "miss" with a beam...

 

[Captain_Nemo]

How do you miss with a beam?

Watch me roll dice sometimes.



:lol:

 

[Ripple]

You miss with a beam the same way we lose things in space all the time. It's not easy to find small things in space, especially if they have any interest in not being found. It's not so much about the weapon, its about the targeting system.

Keep in mind that your speed of light can be several seconds from the target to you, then back from you to the target, if the distances are as big as some folks say. It's more like trying to shoot someone in the dark with your rifle. You have ir, they have a heat absorbing suit, you have light enhancement, they lay smoke... sure the tech is different, but the game is the same.

Ripple

 

[tneva82]

Straight line, speed of light, in space... Seems kind of hard to miss...

Until you concider that you are firing at target thousands of km's away you most likely don't even SEE from windows. It's more of a case of how well computer calculates angle the gun should be pointing.

 

[Hans Olo]

With this overwhelming result in favor of the new beam rules, i start to thing that here is a big point not taken in consideration.
While the new rules are a try to make Hull 4 ships more survivable it does exactly the opposite to hull 6 ships.
They are taking a lot more hits now what means more damage and more criticals.
I'm afraid that this could lead to more swarm fleets with beam weapons.
Also it possibly will lead to the end of most of the iconic ships like the G'Quan and the Omega.
I really don´t think that is was a good idea to make the Hull value meaningless.
More Damage and crits for high Hull ships is in my opinion definitely a step into the wrong direction! In first ed most of us thought that the High priority iconic ships where desperately in need of a boost to make them a viable choice once more, now the opposite was achieved.
Comparing both critical tables the old and the new one I came to the conclusion that the new one is not significantly softer than the old one was.
The speed 0 crit is still there just changed to running adrift, what is more or less the same. The 4-6 is gone but therefore an additional loose on random arc is in. Most of the other nasty results staid unchanged, like 4+ to fire or 6-6 and 6-5.
Not to mention the possibility of loosing traits now.
Of course there is a better all hands to deck now. But waiting a turn in order to repair a crit means most of the time that the ship is already gone, because it takes more hits from beams now. And of course the new crit table has more crits that completely stop you from doing damage control ore make it more difficult. And there are a lot of chances to take a crit that stops you from making SA what negates the positive effect of all hands to deck.
I think the last thing this game has needed was a weapon that produces more hits and therefore crits on high hull ships.
Where the new beam rule definitely does a good job is hull 4 survivability, but that's all. The other way it only got worse for bigger ships!
That is NOT a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Iain McGhee]

I haven't really seen that in practice yet. I'm sure there are a number of players who could give examples for and against, but I've seen around a dozen Drazi take on a pair of Omegas and get thrashed. The Omegas were a mess, but still functional by the end of the game. The larger ships have generally far better secondaries than others and the CBD changes and new DF SA help them survive against swarms. Although a beam strike can, in theory, roll an infinite number of hits they've got an equal chance of missing all together.

 

[daishi]

My friend & I played a few games & in over 1/2 beams that got lucky runs of hits turned the course of battles & like others have found it seems to favour smaller ships. So seeing this we tried a new version of the rules - first hit is at 4+ then every other hit is the hull score eg. Omega fires at a Sharlin first hit attempt requires a 4+ then subsequent hits require 5+

We reasoned that the ships were easy to hit but with higher hulls they were tougher to continue to cut through making bigger ships more survivable & a better reason to take. This also meant that although lower hull ships were still easier to kill it also meant they were not as easy to kill as 1ED with SAP beams. Although we havent played too many games with this new rule it seems to be working better & we are taking more of the iconic ships. We may have to slightly increase the AD though to make up for it

 

[Ripple]

I think an example of a friend of mine sums up some of this...

He was discussing Flames of War vs Battlefront as games and simulations. Two of the Flames players hearing about how Battlefront was more a fall back and regroup than kill game commented they would not like the game. To them the game is about rolling dice and picking up pieces.

Flames has a lot of folks who love to play, Battlefront not so many. Battlefront is probably a much more accurate simulation of what happens on a battlefield, but that's not the game folks want to play.

Ripple

 

[Locutus9956]

How do you miss with a beam anyway? I'm much more accurate with a flashlight than I am with a rifle (and I'm a pretty good shot).

Ok some counters:

1) As has been noted on many many occasions a roll to hit in ACTA is more than just a roll to hit the target ship, its a roll to hit it in a place that can potentially cause damage (ie not merely bouncing off armour).

2) The speed of light argument: 1) Not all beams are lasers. Particle beams, as high as their speed is, do NOT travel at light speed. Nor do lighting bolts, or Neutron beams. Ok so their speed is still VERY fast but over space combat ranges even if were not talking stupily long ranges it can still be tricky to hit a target that is not only moving but actively changing course erratically and attempting to avoid being shot.

3) Targeting systems for advance weapons at ranges like that are not just a matter of 'pointing them at the target and firing' you have to detect the enemy ship, lock it with your sensors, and plot a firing solution, the enemy is no doubt trying to jam your sensors and so on.

4) How do you dodge half a beam?: If theres a big stream of energy pouring into your ship and you move out of the way faster than the beam weapons tracking system can follow, then there you go. Youve dodge part of the beam.

And for the record:

1) Space is not empty, there are dust particles, micrometeors, gas pockets, general space junk etc. Especially near inhabited systems where battles would be likely. After all, who wants to fight for wide empty space?

2) Light IS affected by gravity. Not as much as a bullet granted but it still is and that can actually have a small effect on targeting at spacial ranges near a large gravity source like, say, a planet. Slower moving things like particle beams even more so.

3) If its so easy, go take flashlight, and hit a moving car on a freeway from 5 miles away WHEN YOU SWITCH IT ON. Not switch it on and then adjust your aim, aim first. Beams weapons dont have unlimited energy, and cant fire forever! Even if the flashlight wasnt a wide beam its still no mean feat!

EDIT: Im making a point here, please dont anyone actually go shining flashlights at moving cars as your liable to cause an accident and get arrested.

 

[Locutus9956]

As for the beams, now Ive had a chance to play with them a bit, I like them, you get the occasional runnaway big hit, but then frankly you did under the old rules and theyre no longer instadeath to small ships!

 

[Hans Olo]

like them, you get the occasional runnaway big hit, but then frankly you did under the old rules and theyre no longer instadeath to small ships!

It is not the runaway big hit that concerns me, it is the average hit that does more damage on a higher hull then before.
As I said earlier giving low hull ships a chance to take a few hits without getting shred to pieces by single hit (thats what the Centaurie are doing now) is a good thing. But getting more hits with hull 6 in average then before is not a good thing. As long as a hit has a chance to produce a crit this rule will make the big (high priority vessels with high hull score) a less viable choice.

 

[C.H.A.D.]

It seems to me if you bought every far-stretching argument on how to miss with a beam you would have to conclude that it would be near impossible to hit with anything other than a beam.

Neverethless the flashlight analogy was a joke.

As for the topic at hand run-away beam shots have been a major problem in our games. Games are coming down to who gets lucky on beam shots. I had an Octurian torn in two by a White Star on the 2nd turn. Beams being abrupt game enders is ruining a lot of our battles.

We've come up with a lot of house rules to test out.

1: Beams hit with all AD. That is the expected result with the current rules, this just takes away the deviation.

2: For each AD roll a die. On a one it causes no hits, on a two through five it causes one hit, and on a six it causes two hits. Pretty close to the first option, but with a little more deviation.

3: Beams need a four on the first roll (as per current rules) but each subsequent roll needs to match or beat the hull value of target. This makes the big ships less likely to get randomly blown up.

Anyway, in the end as we have a tight-nit game group and don't play in tournaments we will be changing the beam rules.