Battle of the River Plate - Critique

[Bullshot]

We tried the scenario again this weekend with the set-up being what we read as correct. Measure out 24" from a short table side and place the Graf Spee in the center. From the same side, measure 6" in and 18" from each long side. That makes the deployment zones for the Brits. It is a chase engagement. With the Graf Spee flanking each turn, spotter craft can never catch up with it. You will rarely get the beam bonus on the Graf Spee as you are chasing it and without spotters, it makes the thing nigh unhittable until you close the range some, which you will do after several turns, as the Brits are 1" faster than the Graf Spee. Our only saving grace to help kill it was when the Graf Spee player made a slight turn to try to bring his broadsides to bear on the 2 Leansders. Once he did that, we were able to score enough damage to cripple it and slow it down. It took us like 5-6 turn to start whittling him down. Had he not turned, he could have made it off the table in a few more turns. Looking at it that way, I can see it being a winnable scenario for the Graf Spee, although it would be a hard win to get and he would have to run hard for the table edge. If he can keep his bow to the exeter and flank, the exeter will be really hard pressed to even hit the Graf Spee and it is the only ship than can cause speed limiting crits on the ship since the Leanders are all weak weapons.

Dale

 

[holden88]

We have played this one a few times now and we have found that the Graf Spee is hard pressed to win if it tries to fight it out. It all seems to come down to the torpedo attacks. If the British cruisers hit with their torps, then it's pretty much over. Barring some lucky critical hits, there is no way the Graf Spee can prevent the faster British ships from getting close enough to launch torps. With a little luck and timing she may be able to use "Evasive Action" to minimize torpedo hits.

And as to this being a chase scenario. The deployment description is a little vauge. Also, the map is no real help either. But, the historical data doesn't really support a chase scenario. Take a look at this engagement map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/HMSO_Graf_Spee_battle_map.jpg

If the scenario is assumed to start at about 6:56, then the ships would be roughly in the position indicated by the VAS scenario (if you force the British ships to deploy behind the Graf Spee). Unfortunately, in the real battle Graf Spee opend fire at 6:18 when the two fleets were still closing. By the time the battle evolved into a chase, the Exeter had already been crippled was forced to retire.

Maybe The scenario should be a closing engaement at the start, with the Graf Spee doubling back the way she came and trying to escape off of her own short board edge?

 

[chaos0xomega]

Digger, since we are talking about opinions, here's mine: You're overreacting, and you have an inferiority/ persecution complex.

I was stating that you seem to think there is a problem with the scenario, and that it is unwinnable for the Germans. I pointed out that this is not the case, as it has been tested several times and the Graf Spee had won in at least 1 example. Then I proceeded to suggest, not patronize, not claim, but suggest that perhaps you were making an error with the layout, as others have claimed, or that you were perhaps lacking in experience, and just making stupid(not that you are stupid, just that you are making mistakes that you wouldn't have done had you had more experience) mistakes during the course of the game, that was effecting the outcome. Apparently it is the former, and not the latter. I don't see why you are overreacting, and I WOULD have apologized, if you didn't immediately make assumptions and overreacted.

 

[Oly]

If the scenario is assumed to start at about 6:56, then the ships would be roughly in the position indicated by the VAS scenario (if you force the British ships to deploy behind the Graf Spee). Unfortunately, in the real battle Graf Spee opend fire at 6:18 when the two fleets were still closing. By the time the battle evolved into a chase, the Exeter had already been crippled was forced to retire.

Maybe The scenario should be a closing engaement at the start, with the Graf Spee doubling back the way she came and trying to escape off of her own short board edge?

The trouble is that the German player knows that his easiest victory condition is to hoof out of the table as quickly as possible. Therefore their first move is likely to be to turn around and make that break for it.

Having the Graf Spee start off by facing the opposite edge from the one that it needs to reach might give a sufficient twist on the scenario for those that want it.

That's as if the German Captain has just realised what he's actually up against and not just a couple of destroyers guarding a convoy. The player then has the same choice as to turn tail and run or try and inflict some damage first.

I'll probably try playing it that way if the Germans have too easy a time of it.

That's if I can find some players. Weird how there's no one else in London on the list yet....

 

[DM]

That's as if the German Captain has just realised what he's actually up against and not just a couple of destroyers guarding a convoy.

According to Dr Eric Grove (eminent naval historian and TV pundit) the theory that Langsdorff mistook the light cruisers for destroyers is a myth; apparently he knew darned well what they were but, as he was on the verge of returning to Germany was itching for a fight, having been ordered to avoid contact throughout his cruise.

 

[holden88]

The trouble is that the German player knows that his easiest victory condition is to hoof out of the table as quickly as possible. Therefore their first move is likely to be to turn around and make that break for it.

We just gamed the scenario as a closing engagement with the Graf Spee attempting to turn around and escape off her own board edge. It worked out okay. The thing is, it takes a while for the Graf Spee to turn around. She can only make 1 turn and she needs to roll a 5+ to use the "come about" special action. The British cuisers still managed to get up close to her before she had a chance to complete her turn and get off the board.

Damage report from our game
Exeter - Moderate damage, heavy casualties (lucky critical hit early on which caused multiple explosions and started three fires)

Ajax - Sunk (by close range gunfire and torpedoes from Graf Spee)

Achilles - Light damage and casualties (A few parting shots from Graf Spee)

Graf Spee - Sunk (gunfire and multiple torpedoes from Ajax & Achilles at close range)

Out of five times through the scenario now, the Graf Spee lost everytime. The best she has managed to do was to sink one British ship and cripple another before going down herself. A few times she was sunk with hardly any damage inflicted on the British fleet. It must be said that the first few times we played this battle the Graf Spee tried to fight it out. Lately she has been trying just to escape. We also tinker with the deployment of the ships (as we re-read and re-interperet the scenario). I'm not saying the scenario is broken or anything, but I think is it definately tilted towards the British. I prefer it that way though. Accurate historical scenarios are rarely balaced anyway.

Next time I think we'll do this as a two part scenario. First the Graf Spee tries to escape. Then each ship will have a chance to repair some damage. Then in the second scenario the Graf Spee sailsout from Montevideo and gives battle. Sort of a what if battle.

 

[pbeccas]

Then in the second scenario the Graf Spee sailsout from Montevideo and gives battle. Sort of a what if battle.

Now that would be an interesting game.

The Cumberland, Achilles and Ajax would be on hand. What about Exeter? Would you keep her in the game with a starting damage?

I guess Graf Spee would still go under but victory points could be achieved be how much damge she could do. You could even step on the wild side and have a German Commerce Raider appear in the battle to even things up.

Sounds good.

 

[Digger]

My dear Chaos0xomega,

"Your thoughts, though many, are not worth a penny!" :lol:

Perhaps you think erudite is a type of glue? Either way I think the best way to settle this is over a game of VaS, specifically the scenario in question, with you as the Captain of the Graf Spee. assuming of course you are in the UK and wish to accept the challenge? :wink:

I await your response,

Yours Aye

Digger. :lol:

 

[chaos0xomega]

Sorry digger, other side of the atlantic. If you're ever in the NYC area let me know(I don't actually have the book yet, so you would probably whipe the floor with me :wink: )

If I ever am in England, I'll let you know.

 

[Digger]

Shame you are so far away - Methinks it would be a good game.

In case you are interested, and as a peace offering, I have created some word sheets for the BOTRP ships, the Bismarck battle and an outline for a E-Boat; if you want them they are yours,

Kind regards

Digger.

 

[hyndridge]

We have just played the scenario twice tonight with one win each!

For the deployment we took it that the British could deploy either end of the table up to 18" from the long edge and up to 6" from the short edge, the map in the rule book is appalling!

In both game the Brits deploed with Exeter and Achilles in front of the Graf Spee and Ajax behind.

First game Graf Spee steammed ahead and then turned to fight by which time the cruisers were close enough to launch torpedoes and down she went for the loss of the Ajax.

Second game and the Graf Spee turned to fight Exeter at long range and sank her before any damage could be done in reply.

Achilles and Ajax fought on and Graf Spee was down to one damage left before sink the last RN ship.

One of the major rules that affect this scenario is that Critical Hits can not be scored by guns that are 'weak' so Achilles and Ajax main guns can not cause 'Critical Hits'!

Roland