Battle Dress Skill Question

-Daniel- said:
Infojunky said:
In terms of that game y'all describe I agree with you, in fact i will raise you one. VaccSuit, Battledress and a dozen other sorts of environment suits all probably should be nested proficiencies under a controlling skill.
Ok, so you think it should all be Vacc Suit, but Vacc Suit (Powered Armour) or something like that? How would that control, say a Merchant Character from gaining the skill at a level that allowed him to use a Battle Dress Suit without negative DMs?

No what I am suggesting in a new game you have Proficiencies like DnD3rd with maybe a generic skill on top if one really need to make a skill roll within the whole environment suit topic. Though I might ditch the skill and just give a flat -3 DM to all activities while wearing a suit that y'all weren't proficient in.....

As for that devoted Merchant, if he spent the time in game getting proficient I'd let him...
 
Infojunky said:
As for that devoted Merchant, if he spent the time in game getting proficient I'd let him...
Fair enough, but I believe they were thinking of through the life path.

In-Game I allow lots of odd things to make the overall game more fun for everyone. :mrgreen:
 
Infojunky said:
Oh? Do Tell....

How does Battledress allow a trooper to surpass the limitations of his body? Ok, I'll give that it allows a greater load to be carried, but the the limits of speed, flexibility and situational awareness are all still there.

Battledress not only makes you stronger and faster, but the sensors built into it feed you additional information regarding your surroundings and potential enemies/targets. You also have built-in weapons targeting and limited assistance from your suit to do all these many functions while maneuvering, ducking and firing.

Put it this way, it would be like incorporating all the duties of a 4-man tank crew into two - commander, gunner, driver and loader. Some are automated, but at the heart of the operation is a highly skilled and trained person who can smash through a door or turn the handle and open it like a regular person could.

That's Battledress.

Infojunky said:
Ok, I am not going to disagree with you other than in terms of this game. Here we are trying to keep it at the simplest level as possible, defining the characters in the broadest strokes possible.

In terms of that game y'all describe I agree with you, in fact i will raise you one. VaccSuit, Battledress and a dozen other sorts of environment suits all probably should be nested proficiencies under a controlling skill. The same goes for a lot of things....

I'm okay with some simplification, but not over-simplification. That's kind of the point of having various skills so people can do wondrous things in some arenas, but not so much in others. It used to be Gun Combat covered ALL weapons, except where they leached over into say Lasers, or High-energy weapons. I'm not saying we need Cyrano Arms TL-6 Rifle skill vs. MegaTech ACR TL-10 kind of skills. But if you want more than say skill level 1, you need at least some logical separation from types.

As I mentioned before, it's relatively easy to adjust in your own campaign.
 
phavoc said:
Battledress not only makes you stronger and faster,

Lets start there, Stronger, I will concede that point. But Faster? How so? Driving the legs faster means exponential increase of muscular and skeletal failures. Also remember fatalities start to spike after 25 mph (40 kmh). Also with the extra mass reacting around one, the reflexes would slowed by at least the ination phase of the armors exoskeleton but probably also by it's mass.


phavoc said:
but the sensors built into it feed you additional information regarding your surroundings and potential enemies/targets. You also have built-in weapons targeting and limited assistance from your suit to do all these many functions while maneuvering, ducking and firing.

Ok, increased availability of sensor data, note; wouldn't that imply the need for the sensors skill rather than Battledress Skill. Also you are implying more machine intelligence than the setting often allows for. But I will give a wider range of electronic options, though are probably all available to other Armor suits as options as well....

phavoc said:
Put it this way, it would be like incorporating all the duties of a 4-man tank crew into two - commander, gunner, driver and loader. Some are automated, but at the heart of the operation is a highly skilled and trained person who can smash through a door or turn the handle and open it like a regular person could.

Not sure of your point here, remember a single man is still that....
 
Infojunky, I think this is where we stop talking about a game and begin talking reality. There is a "oh cool" factor to the idea of Powered Armour that we all know is not based in reality, or at least to the reality we know and can foresee using today's technology.

The increase in DEX, I will admit to a moment of hand waving. Sort of like when we agree to accept Gravity control being common in lots of areas of Traveller. At some point we just accept the idea for the cool factor.

Increased sensor input, maybe that is part of what is covered in the Battle Dress skill. The ability to deal with and use the increased data generated by using the Battle Dress interface. Sort of like me playing some of the PS4 games with my 11 year old. He has learned to process all the input they through at him faster than I do. My mind just overloads but not his, so he kicks his old man's arse on a regular basis.

I take his tank crew point to be that with training and automation one person could do more, take on more responsibility. Thus the Gunner as a separate role is folded into one of the other crew because the function is mostly automated. But I could be wrong. :mrgreen:

In the end, I can only say this; In my opinion the skill variance between Vacc Suit and Battle Dress is large enough that I believe separate skills really are needed. Clearly in 1st edition they worked. The battle Dress covered all the various Battle Dress and powered armour found in both official and 3rd party sources. I believe it still would make more sense.
 
Infojunky said:
Lets start there, Stronger, I will concede that point. But Faster? How so? Driving the legs faster means exponential increase of muscular and skeletal failures. Also remember fatalities start to spike after 25 mph (40 kmh). Also with the extra mass reacting around one, the reflexes would slowed by at least the ination phase of the armors exoskeleton but probably also by it's mass.

When you are wearing something that amplifies your STR/DEX/END you, the wearer, don't have to exert yourself anywhere near the level you would trying to attempt to do that without enhancement. So assuming you were an exceptional athlete and you could run a 4min mile... the human body cannot take that level of effort to do two miles. But a machine can.

There's no reason to assume you cannot make a machine's reflexes faster than a human. Humans have physical limitations due to genetics, gender and the underlying architecture of our bodies. We know with the right drugs we can enhance and increase certain areas, but we still have limitations. A machine's limits are the designers imagination, power, and material sciences. It's easy to make materials stronger than human bone and muscle. It's easy to make a machine respond faster than a human body, and we can make machines that can go for days at top speed where a human cannot.


Infojunky said:
Ok, increased availability of sensor data, note; wouldn't that imply the need for the sensors skill rather than Battledress Skill. Also you are implying more machine intelligence than the setting often allows for. But I will give a wider range of electronic options, though are probably all available to other Armor suits as options as well....

If you are video gamer you can see how information overload is possible. Or talk to fighter pilots who have to not only fly, but worry about locking on to enemy aircraft, triggering self-defense, monitoring the status of their aircraft. It's a lot to do for just one person. We already automate some of that today.

The sensor skill is learning how to operate them, not learning how to utilize them. And you wouldn't have the same functionality present. That would require too much attention. You would have voice-commands to tell your expert system what you are looking for. Plus it would be pre-programmed to alert you to specific threats or certain environmental variables, and do it with or without required interaction with you.

Infojunky said:
Not sure of your point here, remember a single man is still that....

-Daniel- had it right in what I was looking to explain. Synthesizing the actions and responsibility of a crew into an AI allows the Battledress armed person to concentrate on the tasks at hand. There would be two difficulties I would see specific to Battledress. The first is learning how to interact with the world in both an enhanced and non-enhanced mode. Using my tank example, you actually DO have to learn how to drive an armored vehicle in combat situations, but also in very normal, very safe situations as well. The same would be true for Battledress. That's going to be a skill just like it is today. The second issue is going to be learning how to do all that while being bombarded with data and having to make very fast decisions based on your sensor data (including your Mk. 1 eyeball). Sensory overload is a very real thing which some people experience today. The Battledress sensors are going to be feeding you a great deal of information. Some of that can be handled by your suit AI, but the person inside still has to make decisions on what to do, how to interpret it, and when to try and get more, or less info for an action.

When you combine all this it shows (or should) that Battledress is so much more than a simple vac suit. You can take bits and pieces out and put them into other arenas (combat armor with 'smart' helmets, vac suits designed for hazardous environments, etc. But taken all together creates something totally different.

And that's why Battledress skill should be separate from vac suit skill.
 
Ok, guys back to zero here.

1st off I am a grognard, and as such I tend to take the classic view of Battledress, which is that it is the next stage in development from Combat Armor. With that Combat Armor is a a fully militarized and armor enhanced Vacc Suit. With that a plain vanilla Vacc Suit requires Vacc Suit-0, And Combat Armor and Battledress requires Vacc Suit-1.

Yes I know the Playtest says different, and even if the required levels stay in the book I will probably ignore them, as per the grand old Traveller tradition....
 
Infojunky said:
With that a plain vanilla Vacc Suit requires Vacc Suit-0, And Combat Armor and Battledress requires Vacc Suit-1.
That is what is so odd about the Beta. Combat Armour has no skill restriction and Battle Dress requires Vacc Suit-3. :lol:
 
-Daniel- said:
Infojunky said:
With that a plain vanilla Vacc Suit requires Vacc Suit-0, And Combat Armor and Battledress requires Vacc Suit-1.
That is what is so odd about the Beta. Combat Armour has no skill restriction and Battle Dress requires Vacc Suit-3. :lol:

I concur....
 
Been thinking about this.

I think we should lean towards game play rather than absolute realism - I have lowered the skill requirement for both Battle Dress and HE Vacc Suits by 1 across the board. You still need to be qualified to use them properly (and even if you are not, decent stats and other skills may see you through), but there is still a sense that they are not toys...
 
msprange said:
Been thinking about this.

I think we should lean towards game play rather than absolute realism - I have lowered the skill requirement for both Battle Dress and HE Vacc Suits by 1 across the board. You still need to be qualified to use them properly (and even if you are not, decent stats and other skills may see you through), but there is still a sense that they are not toys...
Sounds like a fair middle ground. What about the lack of any requirement for Combat Armour? It is just an armoured vacc suit as has been pointed out to me. Shouldn't it have at least some restriction as well?
 
Well... that is something to discuss!

I have always kinda seen it as being similar to the armour in Mass Effect. Do we think that needs a skill?
 
msprange said:
Well... that is something to discuss!

I have always kinda seen it as being similar to the armour in Mass Effect. Do we think that needs a skill?
Not a skill, just a skill requirement. Right now it is listed with no requirement yet the description clearly says;
Combat armour can function as a vacc suit and provides life support for six hours.

And right now Vacc Suit has a Skill Requirement of level 1 @TL8 and level zero @ TL 10 & 12.

It seems odd that the Vacc Suit requires the skill but Combat Armour does not even when it functions as a Vacc Suit.
 
-Daniel- said:
msprange said:
Well... that is something to discuss!

I have always kinda seen it as being similar to the armour in Mass Effect. Do we think that needs a skill?
Not a skill, just a skill requirement. Right now it is listed with no requirement yet the description clearly says;
Combat armour can function as a vacc suit and provides life support for six hours.

And right now Vacc Suit has a Skill Requirement of level 1 @TL8 and level zero @ TL 10 & 12.

It seems odd that the Vacc Suit requires the skill but Combat Armour does not even when it functions as a Vacc Suit.

I agree that it makes sense to require vacc suit 0 for Combat Armour.
 
It still makes no sense to me that a spacer (merchant/free trader) on a tramp ship who can learn vacc suit 2 will therefore be able to don and use battle dress.

My vote is to reinstate the battle dress skill or a new skill, powered armour with military and civilian specialisations.
 
-Daniel- said:
msprange said:
Well... that is something to discuss!

I have always kinda seen it as being similar to the armour in Mass Effect. Do we think that needs a skill?
Not a skill, just a skill requirement. Right now it is listed with no requirement yet the description clearly says;
Combat armour can function as a vacc suit and provides life support for six hours.

And right now Vacc Suit has a Skill Requirement of level 1 @TL8 and level zero @ TL 10 & 12.

It seems odd that the Vacc Suit requires the skill but Combat Armour does not even when it functions as a Vacc Suit.
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes

One yes for every thread where I've mentioned this.
 
So, the only difference I can find between Battle Dress and Powered Armour in the CSC is that Battle Dress gives you a Dex bonus, and it can mount vehicle-scale weapons.

Rules-wise, why is Battle Dress even a separate thing at this point? Should it be? If so, what makes it different from "Powered Armour"? Should Powered Armour be removed and everything powered become Battle Dress?

As a little bit of a digression, a possible explanation for the Dex bonus that Battle Dress gives that would also add some good role-playing fodder is that the suit detects and reacts to things like incoming fire faster than the user would himself. This could put you in a bad situation if you walk around town in your Battle Dress and your suit decides a baseball thrown at you is a threat... (See Cobra by Timothy Zahn for where I got this idea.)

For the bonus to things like shooting, the suit could be making minute auto-corrections to the user's aim before they fire...
 
-Daniel- said:
msprange said:
Well... that is something to discuss!

I have always kinda seen it as being similar to the armour in Mass Effect. Do we think that needs a skill?
Not a skill, just a skill requirement. Right now it is listed with no requirement yet the description clearly says;
Combat armour can function as a vacc suit and provides life support for six hours.

And right now Vacc Suit has a Skill Requirement of level 1 @TL8 and level zero @ TL 10 & 12.

It seems odd that the Vacc Suit requires the skill but Combat Armour does not even when it functions as a Vacc Suit.
Matt, I was thinking about this and suggest either the skill requirement be added to combat armour as it is an armoured vaccsuit per the description, or remove the vaccsuit ability from combat armour and then it drops to just plates hanging on a trooper.

I think to leave the ability of the combat armour to act as a vaccsuit and not tax it with the same restrictions as the vaccsuit just feels wrong.
 
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