Battle Dress Skill Question

[Anonymous]

An imperial marine or army character would have a good chance of acquiring BD in whatever form the rules describe it as.

A dude coming from a free trader (for example) background with no exposure to high tech military ops would learn battle dress how?

If I add house rules to incorporate skills as I see them, I have to tweak the tables the skills are learnt from. I would really rather not have to house rule things, it's takes time from the fun stuff of setting up a game for players to play.

I wouldn't try to stop a PC from acquiring a suit of battle dress, sure there will be hoops to jump thru just like if I wanted to buy myself an F22 Raptor tomorrow morning cos I had too much coffee and kinda fancied seeing if super cruise was all it's cracked up to be (What do you mean I can't fly the damned thing? I have flown many hours in flight sims, I am sure I'd know how to ramp start it, there's an on board computer to take care of the nitty gritty isn't there? :mrgreen: )

If you're playing/running a merc game it isn't necessarily the PCs that buy the battle dress, the company they work for will be supplying the tools for the job at hand, yeah, the PCs could be the said company, all good. If they want a job for said company then they had better demonstrate the skill set necessary.

I agree that setting a skill requirement for a piece of gear like battle dress to 3 is not in keeping with a believable projection of the 57th century and stinks of restricting/impeding characters.

 

[ScryingEyeGames]

After looking at the new rules for learning skills, it would only take a green grunt 10 weeks (page 51) to learn how to use TL 13 Battledress from scratch, if they made all their rolls. That would be something any military unit would be willing to spend training on if they had the tech available. So the Vacc Suit-3 requirement seems almost negligible to me.

What I'm wondering is: Should Exoskeletal Suit be made a vehicular skill? That way you can have non-atmo suits for cargo loaders/etc, then add in a vacc suit skill requirement only if its a pressurized suit?

(I'll use Edge of Tomorrow and Elysium as examples in this case.)

 

[-Daniel-]

After looking at the new rules for learning skills, it would only take a green grunt 10 weeks (page 51) to learn how to use TL 13 Battledress from scratch, if they made all their rolls. That would be something any military unit would be willing to spend training on if they had the tech available. So the Vacc Suit-3 requirement seems almost negligible to me.

Except those learning rules are only for *after* you retire from the Marines. Before, when you are in the 4 year term, you max out at two or three random skill levels. So the requirement is only easy to meet after you are done being a Marine. Thus the issue we are having with both the requirement and the after career training rules. The difference is quite large.

 

[ScryingEyeGames]

After looking at the new rules for learning skills, it would only take a green grunt 10 weeks (page 51) to learn how to use TL 13 Battledress from scratch, if they made all their rolls. That would be something any military unit would be willing to spend training on if they had the tech available. So the Vacc Suit-3 requirement seems almost negligible to me.

Except those learning rules are only for *after* you retire from the Marines. Before, when you are in the 4 year term, you max out at two or three random skill levels. So the requirement is only easy to meet after you are done being a Marine. Thus the issue we are having with both the requirement and the after career training rules. The difference is quite large.

Yeah, and I think the error in my original post goes deeper than that, since there is a lot of discontent over the rules for learning new skills.

I still stand by my idea of the Exo Suit skill, though.

 

[-Daniel-]

I still stand by my idea of the Exo Suit skill, though.

Yes, sorry I should have said I like the idea of it so that other types of powered armor or powered devices could be used with it. Like you said, the cargo loader as an example.

 

[phavoc]

I agree that battle dress skills should be split out from vac-suit. When you enhance the physical stats of a person they have to re-learn all kinds of things - how to open a door handle without crushing it, how to sit down without plopping, how to write or type without destroying the paper/keyboard. The things we mastered as young people are all brand new. And I think most don't even think about those skills anymore because they are so ingrained in your daily life they just occur.

A person who has, say, Battle Dress-3 should also automatically have the equivalent of Vac Suit-3, but not vice-versa (due to what I mentioned above). So as a Marine you would still be able to do all kinds of neato things you learned to do in your powered armor, except now you are doing them in an unpowered vac suit (no leaping tall buildings, but you'd probably be pretty damn agile in it).

Or you could step it down one skill level, so Battle Dress-3 becomes Vac Suit-2 by default.

Assuming PC's ever get their hands on some powered armor, it could be kind of fun to give them Battle Dress - 0 and then tell them "When you thought you reached gently for the handle on the microwave to get your space burrito out, you end up pulling the entire door handle off. Now how is Stan going to cook his burrito?" Even simple tasks like walking can be hilarious to role play (maybe not to the PC, but a ref has to get his jollies in somewhere).

 

[nawara]

Even simple tasks like walking can be hilarious to role play (maybe not to the PC, but a ref has to get his jollies in somewhere).

Oh man, you should have put a Trigger Warning on that.

I once played in a 7th Sea demo at a game store. Opening scene of the game, we're standing on the deck of a ship. The GM makes all six of us roll easy balance checks. Because, you know, it's a ship. As you might expect given the laws of probability, one guy failed. The GM made him roll acrobatics to stay on the ship. He was a priest, and therefore rolled his one die. He failed. Then he fell into the ocean. We failed our checks to get him out before he drowned.

This was the first scene. Of a demo at a game store.

The GM thought it was great fun.

:|

 

[phavoc]

This is kind of a topic segue, but what the hell... it's a time honored tradition!

If you'd like to be able to describe what the advantages of a higher skill level of battle dress makes, there's a series of books by a guy named Charles Ingrid. The "knights" of the series are essentially wearing battle dress armor. And there's an example in the book of why it took so long to train a knight - basically it's not how to blow crap up - anybody can do that. Instead it's how to blow up ONLY the crap you want, and leave everything else in one piece. Which if you think about it would be a pretty damned handy skill to have when fighting in a civilian area or inside a spaceship. Now these guys weren't running around with FGMP or PGMP, which we all know as very subtle weapons... The suits used lasers instead.

Another interesting powered suit sourcebook would be In Fury Born by David Weber. The first third of the book is about the powered armor, and the rest would be more along the lines of the mischief you could get into with augmentation and (for Traveller) psionics.

 

[AndrewW]

Another interesting powered suit sourcebook would be In Fury Born by David Weber. The first third of the book is about the powered armor, and the rest would be more along the lines of the mischief you could get into with augmentation and (for Traveller) psionics.

There's the MI suit used in Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie).

 

[Anonymous]

I really like the detail of working in suits in a hostile environment in The Forever War.

 

[-Daniel-]

Ok, now that I have had time to read the Battle Dress Chapter in the CSC as well as ask a few people to help me play out some combat using Battle Suits I am even more convinced that the elimination of the Battle Dress skill was a mistake. I believe that using the Vacc Suit even at such high levels is just ignores the very different things a Battle Dress is and a Vacc Suit is.

However, I do think the suggested renaming and expansion of the Battle Dress skill to "Exoskeleton" or "Powered Armour" and including any powered armour under that skill makes a lot of sense. A Scout that has Vacc Suit -2 still is unskilled in Battle Dress. Marine with Powered Armour-1 is trained in it's use. It just makes a lot of sense.

So in summary, Please re-install the skill for using Powered Armour regardless of it's name.


PS: The Scout I spoke of above, he was able to out fight the Marines who had Vacc Suit-0 or 1. A Scout who would not have been trained ever in Battle Dress was able to make the skill checks that the Marines couldn't.

 

[Infojunky]

So in summary, Please re-install the skill for using Powered Armour regardless of it's name.

Why?

Meaning we don't have separate skills for guns other than Energy or Slugthrower, we don't have separate skills for driving subclasses of the various vehicle specialities, so why do we need a sub-set of VaccSuit for different types of environment suits?

My real question is "Why is there a Dex add associated with the suits?"

 

[-Daniel-]

So in summary, Please re-install the skill for using Powered Armour regardless of it's name.

Why?

Because they eliminated the Battle Dress skill and are now trying to compensate for the lack of the skill by requiring a skill of 3 in Vacc Suit to use it without negative DMs. TO me, this shows they are aware use of Battle Dress is a special set of skills. And while I guess a specialization split in Vacc Suit could be done (powered suit vs non-powered suit) it seems easier to go back to the separate skill so you could limit who might even have access to training in that skill.

Meaning we don't have separate skills for guns other than Energy or Slugthrower, ...

If they now required a Gen Combat Skill of 3 to use a pistol without negative DMs for example, I would be saying the same thing there. The key for me at this point is not the missing Battle Dress skill per say, it is the fact they elected to make the skill requirement so high to compensate for the Battle Dress skill removal. Either the skill folds in the combined abilities to use the equipment (like Gun Combat did) or it does not.

My real question is "Why is there a Dex add associated with the suits?"

Good question, but not relevant to the removal of the skill. However, I would imagine the thinking is that it increases the ability beyond the human operator within. Should it? Well that I would leave to others to debate. maybe a new thread asking that might be interesting. :mrgreen:

 

[phavoc]

So in summary, Please re-install the skill for using Powered Armour regardless of it's name.

Why?

Meaning we don't have separate skills for guns other than Energy or Slugthrower, we don't have separate skills for driving subclasses of the various vehicle specialities, so why do we need a sub-set of VaccSuit for different types of environment suits?

My real question is "Why is there a Dex add associated with the suits?"

Battle dress is an exception. It's pretty awe-inspiring if properly used. I'm not a big fan of the over-simplification of the skill sets. MOST people can't equally fire an H&K assault rifle and achieve the same level of accuracy using an M4 or an AK-97 (or 74). I realize that some like the simplification, but to have real skill (i.e anything above a 1) requires that you practice, eat, sleep and make love with that specific weapon type. It's an easy enough fix to do if you want to make your own rules, so I'm not going to bother with it.

Battle-dress is still FAR different than a vac-suit. It would be like Pilot-1 allows you to fly a Sopwith Camel, a B-58, a Scout/Courier and a 1,000,000 ton battleship all equally well. It shouldn't be that way, but gee, it looks cool in the movies like that.

 

[Infojunky]

Why?

Because they eliminated the Battle Dress skill and are now trying to compensate for the lack of the skill by requiring a skill of 3 in Vacc Suit to use it without negative DMs. TO me, this shows they are aware use of Battle Dress is a special set of skills. And while I guess a specialization split in Vacc Suit could be done (powered suit vs non-powered suit) it seems easier to go back to the separate skill so you could limit who might even have access to training in that skill.

That sounds like they need to fix the required skill level more than they need to add another skill.

(Or in other terms Battledress was one of those make weight skills added when GDW was messing around with "Advanced" Character generation)

 

[-Daniel-]

That sounds like they need to fix the required skill level more than they need to add another skill.

I suggested that and the feedback was the powers to be are concerned about the possibility that Characters might get their hands on Battle Dress so they wanted the skill requirement to remain high. But this then places a high bar to reach for even those who would have been trained such as Imperial Marines at TL15.

That is then why I suggested that in order to meet both needs, control on PCs getting Battle Dress and more realistic training bar for Imperial Marines, a return to the separate skill covering the use of powered armour suits made sense. A Marine how receives Battle Dress (or what ever else you want to call the skill) at even level 1 would be effective in their armour and a PC that has Vacc Suit does not gain any advantage when using the Battle Dress. Seems to make more sense. to me. Course others may not agree.

 

[Infojunky]

Battle dress is an exception. It's pretty awe-inspiring if properly used.

Oh? Do Tell....

How does Battledress allow a trooper to surpass the limitations of his body? Ok, I'll give that it allows a greater load to be carried, but the the limits of speed, flexibility and situational awareness are all still there.

I'm not a big fan of the over-simplification of the skill sets. MOST people can't equally fire an H&K assault rifle and achieve the same level of accuracy using an M4 or an AK-97 (or 74). I realize that some like the simplification, but to have real skill (i.e anything above a 1) requires that you practice, eat, sleep and make love with that specific weapon type. It's an easy enough fix to do if you want to make your own rules, so I'm not going to bother with it.

Battle-dress is still FAR different than a vac-suit. It would be like Pilot-1 allows you to fly a Sopwith Camel, a B-58, a Scout/Courier and a 1,000,000 ton battleship all equally well. It shouldn't be that way, but gee, it looks cool in the movies like that.

Ok, I am not going to disagree with you other than in terms of this game. Here we are trying to keep it at the simplest level as possible, defining the characters in the broadest strokes possible.

In terms of that game y'all describe I agree with you, in fact i will raise you one. VaccSuit, Battledress and a dozen other sorts of environment suits all probably should be nested proficiencies under a controlling skill. The same goes for a lot of things....

 

[Infojunky]

That sounds like they need to fix the required skill level more than they need to add another skill.

I suggested that and the feedback was the powers to be are concerned about the possibility that Characters might get their hands on Battle Dress so they wanted the skill requirement to remain high. But this then places a high bar to reach for even those who would have been trained such as Imperial Marines at TL15.

That is then why I suggested that in order to meet both needs, control on PCs getting Battle Dress and more realistic training bar for Imperial Marines, a return to the separate skill covering the use of powered armour suits made sense. A Marine how receives Battle Dress (or what ever else you want to call the skill) at even level 1 would be effective in their armour and a PC that has Vacc Suit does not gain any advantage when using the Battle Dress. Seems to make more sense. to me. Course others may not agree.

Sounds like a Plan....

Gonna tell you a secret, that not even Matt understands. Even though we all play and talk about this game called Traveller, no two games are the Same.

I may disagree with you, but I will never say you are playing your game wrong. Heck I have been playing with largely the same group for the last 25 years and each and every member has a different take on the game still.

 

[-Daniel-]

In terms of that game y'all describe I agree with you, in fact i will raise you one. VaccSuit, Battledress and a dozen other sorts of environment suits all probably should be nested proficiencies under a controlling skill.

Ok, so you think it should all be Vacc Suit, but Vacc Suit (Powered Armour) or some thing like that? How would that control, say a Merchant Character from gaining the skill at a level that allowed him to use a Battle Dress Suit without negative DMs?

By making it a separate skill you can limit what careers have access to it. Now do not get me wrong, I understand what seems to be the goal of skill reduction and specialization reduction. Heck I argued Science should be taken down from the present 17 or so specializations to a much lower three or four. But in this case, I believe having two separate skills would serve many of the needs of the game in a logical way that the present combination and elimination does not.

But to be fair, this is just my opinion. :mrgreen:

 

[-Daniel-]

Gonna tell you a secret, that not even Matt understands. Even though we all play and talk about this game called Traveller, no two games are the Same.

I may disagree with you, but I will never say you are playing your game wrong. Heck I have been playing with largely the same group for the last 25 years and each and every member has a different take on the game still.

Oh I agree with this 100%. I have seen this many times over the years. And not just with Traveller, many other RPGs have the same issue. We all agree on the game we want to play, but we all have visions that differ in small and in some cases, large ways. 8)

I would also not want to seem to say anyone is doing it "wrong". As long as that group is having fun, works for me. What I hope to help do in this Beta is try and get the rules to be as clear as possible so that we, the GMs, know what the starting point is. Then we adjust to fit our particular vision. :mrgreen: