Battle Dress Skill Question

[-Daniel-]

Perhaps, but are you going to address that for every type of suit. Does each type of suit get a reduced required skill by 1 per TL above the introductory TL?

Per the armour chart on page 94 they all reduce over the TLs but not at a one to one scale.

The only reason it looks that way for Battle Dress is that it only has two entries on the chart. I suggested the level 2 than ;eve; 1 was because the chart has the 1 level drop already in it. But if you think both TLs of Battle Dress should remain at VaccSuit 2, and Battle Dress TL 15 drops to VaccSuit-1 for example, that would still fit the pattern seen in the chart right now for the other suits.

Shouldn't any vacc suit need some level of skill to use?

Right now, except for the Combat Armour, they do. Combat Armour says in the notes "Combat armour can function as a vacc suit and provides life support for six hours." So it is the only one that does not have a requirement right now.

 

[Anonymous]

My comment was with regard to

Also at TL14, the "tailored Vacc Suit" comes in and should not require any skill at all to use.

And, as a detail oriented kinda player/gm, I wanna know how the TL14 vacc suit processes waste body fluids...

:mrgreen:

 

[-Daniel-]

My comment was with regard to

Also at TL14, the "tailored Vacc Suit" comes in and should not require any skill at all to use.

And, as a detail oriented kinda player/gm, I wanna know how the TL14 vacc suit processes waste body fluids...

:mrgreen:

My bad, I missed that.

But I do agree, there should be at least a requirement for VaccSuit -0 to reflect the need to understand the basics of suiting up and usage. And I still say the Combat Armour should not get a pass, it works as a VaccSuit, it needs the requirement.

 

[Anonymous]

Combat armour has always "traditionally" used vacc suit skill, it's omission in the CSC was considered an error according to Don McKinney's errata that never quite went public (I am guessing that's cos as he was compiling it, Mongoose were putting together the 2nd Ed).

To clarify why I think powered armour should need a skill to use, I imagine using powered armour is akin to driving a vehicle with your whole body, the suit responds to your every movement (to some degree). It's a whole different ball game from wearing clothing, even when the clothing is as sophisticated as a TL14 vacc suit.

 

[-Daniel-]

To clarify why I think powered armour should need a skill to use, I imagine using powered armour is akin to driving a vehicle with your whole body, the suit responds to your every movement (to some degree). It's a whole different ball game from wearing clothing, even when the clothing is as sophisticated as a TL14 vacc suit.

I do not disagree with you. I thought the elimination of the Battle Dress skill and moving it over to VaccSuit felt odd. They do feel like very different things to me. But given the current combined skill, I do not agree that Battle Dress should be given a super high skill level requirement because they want to not allow every Tom, Dick and Harry who has VaccSuit-1 to use Battle Dress without a negative DM.

 

[Anonymous]

OT but I don't remember the last time I had a player or character who had battle dress. I like my characters geared up but that's more than I'd consider, even if my character could afford it. Conversely, any player I'm GMing turns up in BD can expect several SWAT teams in BD to meet him/her. I'm just no fun...

 

[-Daniel-]

OT but I don't remember the last time I had a player or character who had battle dress. I like my characters geared up but that's more than I'd consider, even if my character could afford it. Conversely, any player I'm GMing turns up in BD can expect several SWAT teams in BD to meet him/her. I'm just no fun...

Unless you were playing in a Military based game where the players were part of a Platoon of Imperial Marines. :wink:
Merchant ship crew, I agree, I have never seen it. Spy, of course not. Explorer based, once and it was not used, it was found and it was very old (fun game). But in our Marine game, it was very common. And of course in that game the kinds of things they were up against scaled as well. :twisted:

 

[Infojunky]

Perhaps, but are you going to address that for every type of suit. Does each type of suit get a reduced required skill by 1 per TL above the introductory TL?

Thus TL 13 BattleDress is Vacc Suit-3
TL-14: Vacc-2
TL-15: Vacc-1
TL-16: Vacc-0
???

I am OK with this rule and actually like it quite a lot as a general rule for all types of Vacc Suits/PowerSuits etc. A built-in way to show that paying that bit extra for the latest and greatest version actually HELPS somehow, not just a generalized "it's better in a lot of undefined ways" like the medical kit.

Working thorugh the other Suits you would have:
Vacc Suit - As listed, looks like it takes 2 TL to reduce from Vacc-1 to Vacc-0
Hostile Enviroment Vacc Suit- At TL10, it would be Vacc-1 and by TL11 would be Vacc-0
Battle Dress - ALready drops by 1 at TL14, so assume Vacc-1 at TL15.

You are actually pretty close already. I think you need to adjust the HES a bit, make it Vacc 1 at TL10 and Vacc-0 at TL11 and you are good to go.

I can Go with this

 

[nawara]

Happy to change the Vacc Suit required levels, but I figure(d) the first gen Battle Dress would be very difficult to operate...

The important thing is for it to be plausible that Battle Dress would become a symbol of the Marines. At Skill 3, it's just not plausible at all. That's too much of an investment. At Skill 2, it's an elite thing even within the Marines. At Skill 1, which is where it was in the last edition, it's totally believable.

The question is, is the typical, bog-standard Marine Battle Dress TL 13 or TL 14? If it's TL 14, then Vacc Suit 2 for TL 13 and Vacc Suit 1 for TL 14 is fine.

About the Armour Benefit: It goes from Cr10,000/TL12 at one time rolled to Cr200,000/TL12 at two times rolled. Is this correct? There's no TL12 armor over 88,000, so I wasn't sure if it was intended to be Cr200,000/TL13 (i.e., TL13 Battle Dress) or if it was intentionally designed to keep Battle Dress off the table at character creation.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

If you are talking about Imperial Marines, they are using TL15 BattleDress, so (presumably) would require Vacc Suit-1 to use, so almost all 3I Marines would be able to use it after their first term...

 

[-Daniel-]

If you are talking about Imperial Marines, they are using TL15 BattleDress, so (presumably) would require Vacc Suit-1 to use, so almost all 3I Marines would be able to use it after their first term...

TL 15 is not listed. Is there a reason? In the past I ran a game where the Characters were marines. I would like to have known that our platoon was at a disadvantage. :wink:

On a serious note: I do understand the desire to limit the access to battle Dress to the generic Traveller character. A three term Merchant should not have the skills to use Battle Dress. Makes sense, but as a Military based game is one of the types we list in the core rules, we can't then assume that the same restrictions should apply. Or at least in my opinion we shouldn't.

So with that in mind, I suggest we consider either lowering the skill restriction or we return to a separate battle Dress Skill or we think about some kind of specialization as you suggested above. Which is the best path? To be honest I am not sure. I can see positive and negative reasons for each.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

My guess is that TL15 Battle Dress is not something that Travellers are ever going to get their hands on in normal play. The CSC probably has the details of this type of equipment.

I do agree with your discussion on skill levels.

Personally, I don't think any equipment should require more than Skill-2. AT Skill-3 you are requiring them to be all planetary experts in that field.

 

[-Daniel-]

My guess is that TL15 Battle Dress is not something that Travellers are ever going to get their hands on in normal play.

Oh I agree 100%. The only reason the one game had the Characters in Battle Dress was they were Marines and we were playing a military focused game and thus the encounters that focused on combat included the correct level of challenges.

The game I want to start right now would never have the Characters in either Battle Dress. It is just not that available. :mrgreen:

 

[nawara]

Personally, I don't think any equipment should require more than Skill-2. AT Skill-3 you are requiring them to be all planetary experts in that field.

I agree. I think Skill-2 for TL13 and Skill-1 for TL14 would be a nice compromise.

Can we get confirmation from Matt that the Armour benefit is supposed to be Cr10,000/TL12 for one roll and Cr200,000/TL12 for two? That seems off to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[Garran]

I suspect that circumstances will mitigate this to a great degree.

Most characters won't have access to it at character creation. Excepting people who get double-Armor among their benefits, it'll be too expensive to afford at character creation, and for those who DO have enough cash, the extra 10% for the TL 14 / Vacc Suit 2 version is the way to go.

If you don't have it at the outset but intend to get it, you'll not only be likely to get the TL 14 version, you'll also benefit from the fact that skill training is now a reasonably practical option, and Vacc Suit 2 isn't going to be too difficult to reach.

Even if you DON'T have enough skill and end up with it anyway, the +4/+6 (and again, most people will have the TL14 version, so +6) to Strength and Dexterity should counteract the -2 DM to physical skill checks, so you're breaking even. Granted, it's not so great if you want to make a lot of Int/Edu/Cha-based skill checks - but why are you wearing battle dress for those?

 

[-Daniel-]

Even if you DON'T have enough skill and end up with it anyway, the +4/+6 (and again, most people will have the TL14 version, so +6) to Strength and Dexterity should counteract the -2 DM to physical skill checks, so you're breaking even. Granted, it's not so great if you want to make a lot of Int/Edu/Cha-based skill checks - but why are you wearing battle dress for those?

While this is all valid, I still do not believe the elimination of the battle Dress Skill to fold it into Vacc Suit then crank the Vacc Suit up to reflect the need for lots of extra training was the way to go. Fact is, having a separate Battle Dress skill made sense just because it was a different set of skills. If the desire was to eliminate a skill, then make it a specialization of Vacc Suit. But truth be told, I think it should have remained it's own skill. In this case, the switch made it feel odd rather than logical. Vacc Suit at any level should be in the use of Vacc Suits. And with the possible additional walkers etc to come, Battle Dress could have been used for those as well.

But if I am going to follow the lead and accept the elimination of Battle Dress as a skill, I will continue to argue that the skill restriction is too high.

 

[grauenwolf]

But if I am going to follow the lead and accept the elimination of Battle Dress as a skill, I will continue to argue that the skill restriction is too high.

Sounds like if we do keep the skill levels this high, there needs to be a career specialty dedicated specifically to using them.

 

[Anonymous]

But if I am going to follow the lead and accept the elimination of Battle Dress as a skill, I will continue to argue that the skill restriction is too high.

Sounds like if we do keep the skill levels this high, there needs to be a career specialty dedicated specifically to using them.

Which ain't really a bad thing cos it's spec ops military gear that not everyone should have access to...

But...

 

[Anonymous]

While this is all valid, I still do not believe the elimination of the battle Dress Skill to fold it into Vacc Suit then crank the Vacc Suit up to reflect the need for lots of extra training was the way to go. Fact is, having a separate Battle Dress skill made sense just because it was a different set of skills.

Agreed 104%

If MgT 2e keeps vacc suit as the appropriate skill for battle dress I'll house rule a new skill: Powered armour and add specialisations for battle dress and the civilian versions which would be the cargo waldos used in Aliens by Ms Weaver. Battle dress might still need higher levels of skill, but at Imperial armed forces TLs, i.e. 14 or 15 it would be skill level 1, below that I'd up the skill level required.

 

[-Daniel-]

See this is where I think this breaks down. It feels to me like we are trying to stop PCs from using Battle Dress though this jump in skill restriction. Yet based on the TL-13 and after Battle Dress is being used by the military, so without having a Character roll for the TL of the Marines they are training with, the Marine should have been fully trained in the use of Battle Dress. Thus the old skill showing up on the 1st ed list.

To take it back to almost no one in the Marines is really trained in it because we fear the Characters will get their hands on it seems like a bad reason to go this way. If the GM does not want them to have it, they don't is the way to limit the Characters from getting their hands on it. But right now, if I elected to do another Military based game, the Marines in my game will be forced to use equipment they are not fully trained for. Even a three for four term Marine, 12 to 16 year veteran, will almost never have gotten VaccSuit-3.

I know I am ranting over a real minor issue here, but for some reason it bugs me even though my present game will never have Battle Dress available for the Characters. I maybe being silly, but it is something I think seems out of sync for me because if feels like we are changing the rules to address a fear of what a player with a weak GM might do.