Battle Dress Skill Question

[-Daniel-]

So last night we played out a small confrontation so we could try a few things. It was about halfway through when we realized neither of the Marines could use the Battle Dress. It now required Vacc-Suit 3. So we have gone from Battle Dress-1 to Vacc-Suit-3?

Did it really need a 2 skill level jump in restriction? Using this means almost no first term marine, even those in "Star Marine" would be using Battle Suits and even second term marines would be hard pressed to make it to three using random skill selection. I understand that you wanted to kill off Battle Dress as a skill, but going to a requirement of 3 seems off to me.

What am I missing?

 

[CosmicGamer]

First, they can use them, just with a penalty.

Second, I pointed out in another thread that Battledress has just started to be introduced at TL 13 and thus is likely to be quite uncommon and not worn by the everyday marine. Something for elite forces. Specially trained forces.

I have the expectation that proper training will be provided in a more specialized career found in a supplement.

In regards to the higher level, the interpretation I have that makes the best sense to me is that the Vacc Suit skill covers the overall complexity and difficulty of properly working within a suit. Keep in mind the negative DMs for tasks while in the suit if one does not have the skill. The Hostile Environment suit being more bulkier and less dextrous than a similar TL vacc suit and Battledress needing a bit more skill to master. "oops, sorry, I just ripped the steering wheel off the rover". At higher TLs the suits are built with materials and technology that make their use easier.

 

[-Daniel-]

First, they can use them, just with a penalty.

Second, I pointed out in another thread that Battledress has just started to be introduced at TL 13 and thus is likely to be quite uncommon and not worn by the everyday marine. Something for elite forces. Specially trained forces.

Guess that could work for justification, I will have to adjust my mental image to accommodate the new rules. Shame though, I loved the images like the one with the marines flying in formation with their AFVs and Tanks. For as long as I remember, a Traveller Marine was in Battle Dress.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I almost hate to suggest this, but do we need to Specialize Vacc Suit?

Vacc Suit (unpowered) and Vacc Suit (powered)?

Then Battle Dress requires the Powered specialty, but so would a vehicle Walker (rather than Drive(walker)). I think back to Ripley in Aliens 3 with her Powered Cargo Loader ...

Not sure though...

 

[-Daniel-]

I almost hate to suggest this, but do we need to Specialize Vacc Suit?

Vacc Suit (unpowered) and Vacc Suit (powered)?

Then Battle Dress requires the Powered specialty, but so would a vehicle Walker (rather than Drive(walker)). I think back to Ripley in Aliens 3 with her Powered Cargo Loader ...

Not sure though...

While I like the idea, it feels like a stretch because there is so few of either type. Though, it would at least address the issue I was having.

Maybe an optional skill tree?

 

[nawara]

I didn't even notice this until now, but it's a huge change.

Vacc Suit 3 is a pretty crazy requirement. In the last edition, there was about a 72% chance that a four-term Star Marine would pick up Battle Dress 1 along the way (assuming they have a +0 EDU bonus and rolled service or specialty each time). A Ground Assault Marine had a slightly harder advancement check, for about a 68% chance of qualifying after four terms (assuming +0 EDU bonus).

Having Vacc Suit 3, meanwhile, is going to happen less than 1% of the time under any realistic circumstances. It's kind of like rolling an 18 STR in Classic D&D using 3d6 in order, except the mechanical benefit is +2 to everything.

I would fully support making the Battle Dress only require Vacc Suit 1.

 

[-Daniel-]

I would fully support making the Battle Dress only require Vacc Suit 1.

Or if we use some of CosmicGamer's logic we could say Battle Dress at TL 13 is Vacc-Suit-2 and at TL 14 is Vacc-Suit-1. This would then hold the pattern in other suits. Lower tech level requires one better.

But yes, I would recommend it be taken down at least one level.

 

[Melbourne Accords]

Thanks for the evocative picture from The Spinward Marches Campaign, Daniel. It's one of my favourite images from Classic Traveller.

I understand (and support) the decision to remove Battle Dress as a skill. I also support the view that the new Vacc Suit 3 requirement is too high.

 

[-Daniel-]

Thanks for the evocative picture from The Spinward Marches Campaign, Daniel. It's one of my favourite images from Classic Traveller.

You are welcome. It is a great image for sure. 8)

 

[Infojunky]

Ok I am a traditionalist, as such Battledress required skill VaccSuit-1. Meaning you need
VaccSuit -1 to wear it effectively.

 

[grauenwolf]

What's the penalty for not having Vacc Suit 3? If I only have Vacc Suit 2 does that mean I am -1 on all rolls? Or the whole -3?

 

[-Daniel-]

What's the penalty for not having Vacc Suit 3? If I only have Vacc Suit 2 does that mean I am -1 on all rolls? Or the whole -3?

As written now, neither. You would have a -2.

Quote;
"Some armours have a required skill. A Traveller suffers DM-2 to all
checks taken in the armour per missing skill level. For example, a
Traveller with no Vacc Suit skill who is in a suit that requires Vacc
Suit 2 would have DM-4 to all his checks."

Side Note: As written, the two VaccSuit-0 requirements serve no point as they would not have a negative. Or the example is wrong and there would be a -2 for the missing zero, -2 for the missing 1, and another -2 for the missing 2. Total -6.

 

[grauenwolf]

Yea, that needs to be resolved.

 

[Anonymous]

While I think some may raise concerns about skill bloat I support RTT's suggestion of specialisations for vacc suit.

Using powered armour would I'd say, be a very different beast to using a regular vacc suit, specialisations would reflect that.

I see battle dress as a special ops piece of gear, while the 2nd Ed has made both combat armour and battle dress more affordable I'd guess most GMs might make players jump thru hoops to get them and having the appropriate skill is a good hoop.

 

[CosmicGamer]

As written, the two VaccSuit-0 requirements serve no point as they would not have a negative.

Agree with the interpretation that the new rules do not include level 0 in the -2DM calculation. From the original core rules

Some armours have a required skill. A character suffers a –2 DM to
all actions taken in the armour per missing skill level, including level
0. For example, a character with no Vacc Suit skill who is in a suit
that needs Vacc Suit 1 would have a –4 DM to all his rolls.

vs playtest rules

Some armours have a required skill. A Traveller suffers DM-2 to all
checks taken in the armour per missing skill level. For example, a
Traveller with no Vacc Suit skill who is in a suit that requires Vacc
Suit 2 would have DM-4 to all his checks.

However, there is some purpose to the Vacc Suit 0 requirement.

A Traveller will rarely need to make Vacc Suit checks under ordinary
circumstances – merely possessing the skill is enough.

 

[-Daniel-]

However, there is some purpose to the Vacc Suit 0 requirement.

A Traveller will rarely need to make Vacc Suit checks under ordinary
circumstances – merely possessing the skill is enough.

Fair enough. Good Point. But I still like the original that included the zero level. :mrgreen:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Happy to change the Vacc Suit required levels, but I figure(d) the first gen Battle Dress would be very difficult to operate...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Perhaps, but are you going to address that for every type of suit. Does each type of suit get a reduced required skill by 1 per TL above the introductory TL?

Thus TL 13 BattleDress is Vacc Suit-3
TL-14: Vacc-2
TL-15: Vacc-1
TL-16: Vacc-0
???

I am OK with this rule and actually like it quite a lot as a general rule for all types of Vacc Suits/PowerSuits etc. A built-in way to show that paying that bit extra for the latest and greatest version actually HELPS somehow, not just a generalized "it's better in a lot of undefined ways" like the medical kit.

Working thorugh the other Suits you would have:
Vacc Suit - As listed, looks like it takes 2 TL to reduce from Vacc-1 to Vacc-0
Hostile Enviroment Vacc Suit- At TL10, it would be Vacc-1 and by TL11 would be Vacc-0
Battle Dress - ALready drops by 1 at TL14, so assume Vacc-1 at TL15.

You are actually pretty close already. I think you need to adjust the HES a bit, make it Vacc 1 at TL10 and Vacc-0 at TL11 and you are good to go.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Also at TL14, the "tailored Vacc Suit" comes in and should not require any skill at all to use. That should be in CSC obviously.

 

[Anonymous]

Shouldn't any vacc suit need some level of skill to use?

We're talking about an extremely hostile environment, if you do something stupid, you die.

The skill is as much about best practice in hostile environments as it is this button turns the air on, your left leg goes in this bit. More advanced suits with built in computers to manage the systems, yup, good idea but still, you got to know what to do in space!

That's why I'd be in favour of a specialisation for battle dress/powered suits or a separate skill.

Of course, it could be left loose to allow the GM to work their own flavour into things but even left loose it needs some level of explanation.