Basic Combat Mechanics Question

[ThatGuy]

I would tend to agree that unarmed combat can be quite lethal. Obviously, not so much against Knights with Pikes in Full Plate behind a Shield wall, but a bar room fight between untrained fighters can lead to death from a blow to the head, or paralyzation from an awkward fall.

A trained individual can crush windpipes, deliver crippling body blows, easily break limbs, and create painful submission holds that can kill on accident.

So, yes unarmed combat can be very deadly. Consider, brass knuckles are outlawed for a reason. Striking someone with a pair is considered assault with a deadly weapon. You can literally kill with one well placed blow to the temple, a strike that requires very little training, if any at all.

A brass knuckle attack is considered "unarmed" in MRQ2.

And professional fighters wear gloves to cushion the blow...for good reason.

And even they still die sometimes, albeit less frequently (although they have doctors on duty ringside, etc., which can make a huge difference between life and death...)

 

[Tamerlin]

No, that is the truth. Perforation of organs from broken bones is certainly possible, but remote.

You go on thinking that.

To actually cause organ damage, one would have to generate force enough to penetrate at least 2 inches into an adult male torso to do that, and that force would need to be sufficient to break a bone.

What, like that's hard?

You must be using Hollywood physics. Good luck with that.

 

[Jujitsudave]

I'm not trying to insult whatever martial art you practice. I'm sure it has plenty of merit and enables the practicioner to punch, kick or otherwise strike effectively.

I'm saying that if you look at the facts in front of you, as well as results from MMA, boxing matches, streetfights and FBI crime statistics, lethal injuries in fistfights are rather rare and usually accidental. If that weren't the case, there would be constant deaths from internal injuries when people are hit in the gut! Like someone suggested earlier, Deadliest Warrior on Spike really puts this into perspective. There are some tests they have run where, even with weapons they aren't able to inflict a lethal injury.

What, like that's hard?

You must be using Hollywood physics. Good luck with that

I'm not the one who has a false sense of confidence in fantasy results from martial arts techniques. If you don't think it's hard, how many people have you killed in this manner?

 

[ThatGuy]

I realize I may be inserting myself (unnecessarily) in the middle of a spiraling argument, but I think that the places you are drawing on for information Jujitsudave are a bit outside of the target area for MRQ2 damage vs realism. No offense, and you are dead on target when you say it is a fantasy game meant to attempt to emulate real world (and sometimes not so real world!) events, but I think a lot of the places you are referring to for statistics are modern day society measures...when people aren't (usually) really trying to kill each other.

Obviously, history tends to be a bit more savage, generally speaking.

With that in mind, modern Martial arts like Krav Maga specialize in killing or crippling as quickly as possible- usually in less than 5 seconds.

Now, they didn't practice Krav Maga in the middle ages, but some training was doubtlessly good enough to kill quickly- and as is pointed out in a lot of the deadliest warrior episodes, it might not kill now, but would probably kill later. In non-magic, medieval reality, an unattended broken limb is a potential death sentence, and a crushed wind pipe on the battle field would kill you as recently as the 1980's.

Simply put, many unarmed attacks are lethal. Not always, not even most of the time, but enough to necessitate their potential lethality into game terms. If a blow can kill, on a maxed out roll, it should.

(Critical success versus Critical Fail! I punch you in the face and you die! Actually, I'm not sure the RAW allow for a average human male to kill another average male with one punch. Now ducks on the other hand...)

 

[PhilHibbs]

(Critical success versus Critical Fail! I punch you in the face and you die! Actually, I'm not sure the RAW allow for a average human male to kill another average male with one punch. Now ducks on the other hand...)

I don't think so - I can't see a way that a fist or kick with no damage modifier can cause any more than 3 points of damage.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Obviously, history tends to be a bit more savage, generally speaking.

Unarmed has been designed to reflect brutal fighting, where severe damage comes as much from bites, gouges, strangulation and leverage bone breaking as from basic punches or kicks.

As ThatGuy points out, most fights remain non lethal because we as civilised folks don't tend to finish off helpless opponents and instinctively use non-permanent strikes during 'inconsequential' conflicts, such as dominance fights or bar-room brawls. Life and death situations change the types of things people do - gonad ripping, biting off ears, driving thumbs into eyes and so on. You do whatever you can to survive.

There are plenty of historical recounts of pankration competitions resulting in one participant's death. Ancient wrestling matches often ended in someone being maimed or paralysed, and in the forthcoming Vikings book I even quote a famous holmgang where one fighter finding his sword was not affecting the berserk he was fighting, literally bit out his foe's throat!

Actually, I'm not sure the RAW allow for a average human male to kill another average male with one punch.

No, but a single punch to the head by an unarmed combatant with +1d2 damage bonus can potentially knock out an average human - which when redesigning the MRQ2 damage rules seemed fair. :wink:

In all fairness to Jujitsudave an unarmed warrior incapacitating an opponent in 5 seconds is perfectly reasonable. Killing them instantly in that space of time is however very, very rare.

Now if you wanted some fantasy martial art to have a secret type of one-strike killing blow you could always create a Heroic Ability to model it. Or a special type of Combat Manoeuvre only taught to practitioners of specific Combat Styles.

 

[Tamerlin]

If that weren't the case, there would be constant deaths from internal injuries when people are hit in the gut!

There's your problem: gut != solar plexus. Both of mentioned the significance of hit location... that hasn't changed.

I'm not the one who has a false sense of confidence in fantasy results from martial arts techniques. If you don't think it's hard, how many people have you killed in this manner?

I haven't had to, fortunately... but some of my teachers have. (Military service.)

 

[Jujitsudave]

No offense, and you are dead on target when you say it is a fantasy game meant to attempt to emulate real world (and sometimes not so real world!) events, but I think a lot of the places you are referring to for statistics are modern day society measures...when people aren't (usually) really trying to kill each other.

That is true and you have a good point about the statistics and how they play into modern rather than medieval applications.

In all fairness to Jujitsudave an unarmed warrior incapacitating an opponent in 5 seconds is perfectly reasonable. Killing them instantly in that space of time is however very, very rare

This is precisely the point I'm trying to make. Killing someone unarmed is exceedingly rare unless it's the result of repeated trauma to a helpless foe.

There are plenty of historical recounts of pankration competitions resulting in one participant's death. Ancient wrestling matches often ended in someone being maimed or paralysed, and in the forthcoming Vikings book I even quote a famous holmgang where one fighter finding his sword was not affecting the berserk he was fighting, literally bit out his foe's throat!

Which I'm very excited to see and I hope will be the first in a long line of MRQ historical supplements.

I haven't had to, fortunately... but some of my teachers have. (Military service.)

Did they actually tell you this? Did you actually believe them? Usually when people kill in wartime, they don't like talking about it and they certainly don't brag about it. There is no governing body that ensures martial arts instructors are legitimate. Why haven't these guys competed in MMA? Don't accept any wild claims at face value for your own sake!

 

[Tamerlin]

This is precisely the point I'm trying to make. Killing someone unarmed is exceedingly rare unless it's the result of repeated trauma to a helpless foe.

You're still wrong, but note that I didn't say anything about instant lethality... unless you break someone's neck, or crush their throat (well, even that wouldn't quite be instant, but pretty quick).

Did they actually tell you this? Did you actually believe them? Usually when people kill in wartime, they don't like talking about it and they certainly don't brag about it. There is no governing body that ensures martial arts instructors are legitimate. Why haven't these guys competed in MMA? Don't accept any wild claims at face value for your own sake!

Where did I say anything about his bragging? He's definitely not that sort of person. What he does is teach, not brag. Your response is actually bordering on insulting, and it demonstrates an extremely small mind. The fact that you seem to equate "lethal" with "instant death" is also a failing on your part.

Most martial artists don't compete, especially the serious ones. Why would they? What's the point? What does it say about someone who thinks that competing in MMA would give someone more value than actual military service? Based on that question alone, you should probably just quit while you're ahead.

 

[Jujitsudave]

You're still wrong, but note that I didn't say anything about instant lethality... unless you break someone's neck, or crush their throat (well, even that wouldn't quite be instant, but pretty quick).

No you didn't. You claim a trained martial artist can kill with a punch, even causing organ damage, presumably at will. If that is incorrect, then yes I'm wrong. What I'm not wrong about is that a trained martial artist is certainly able to disable an opponent with one blow, but to kill, rupture organs? Unless there is a major size difference, that is way off and unlikely from one strike.

Where did I say anything about his bragging? He's definitely not that sort of person. What he does is teach, not brag. Your response is actually bordering on insulting, and it demonstrates an extremely small mind.

What is small minded is believing everything you hear coz "Master Po said so" Think for yourself and ask questions. How do you know he has killed anyone with these techniques? Where did he actually use these techniques? Did he tell you this? Parhaps this is blown out of perportion and this is a perfectly legitimate organization, but many out there are cults of personality. Don't get suckered.

Most martial artists don't compete, especially the serious ones. Why would they? What's the point?.

Just wondering, what kinds of demonstrations or events does your school perform? Do you guys do demos with breaking objects, weapon forms, etc?

What does it say about someone who thinks that competing in MMA would give someone more value than actual military service? Based on that question alone, you should probably just quit while you're ahead.

Yes, based off what I have already stated here, I figure I am ahead. Again, this is no insult towards you but if you take it as such, that's too bad. When it comes to unarmed combat, actually using it has far more value than never having done so at all. Military service gives one more value as a person. As for your teacher, I dont know anything about him or his service or even his martial art, but if anyone tells me he's going to teach me a move thats gonna blow my enemy's liver out his butthole, that raises some red flags!

Hope that helps.

 

[Chronos]

Guys, really, can we get back on topic? :?

 

[Loz]

I quite agree.

I'm not the moderator here, but its gone far enough. If you want to continue sparring, use PMs.

Many thanks.

 

[Jujitsudave]

HA HA HA!!! Yeah, you are right, this has gone on long far enough. It's been fun. Anyway, CA's are unique to MRQ and handle special combat results better than anything else I've seen. Simple and direct.

As for the original question that has long been answered, yes, it will parry the attack, but the cool thing is, the CA still stands.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Combat example, P.98:

The second of the two facing Edric also lashes out with its short sword. Edric spends his third CA to parry and fails but fortunately the trollkin rolls 00 – a fumble!

Since the attacker always rolls first and the defender gets a chance to abort the parry, surely this should read:

The second of the two facing Edric also lashes out with its short sword. The trollkin rolls 00 – a fumble! Edric decides to spend his third CA to parry in order to gain a couple of Combat Manoeuvres against the trollkin, but fails his roll.

 

[Caterpillar]

Hi guys, I have a simple question.
If a PC or NPC wants to evade permanently (go home), as work rules?
For example, I'm engaged and I have 3 CA, my opponent 4 CA. Start a round and my first evade is success, opponent will not. And after ..........?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Hi guys, I have a simple question.
If a PC or NPC wants to evade permanently (go home), as work rules?
For example, I'm engaged and I have 3 CA, my opponent 4 CA. Start a round and my first evade is success, opponent will not. And after ..........?

I think you need to win your exchanges (attacks or parries) and "Change Range", and hope they don't follow you. Once you win enough CMs to get outside of their weapon reach, it becomes a speed contest (taking into account armour modifiers).

 

[Caterpillar]

Hi guys, I have a simple question.
If a PC or NPC wants to evade permanently (go home), as work rules?
For example, I'm engaged and I have 3 CA, my opponent 4 CA. Start a round and my first evade is success, opponent will not. And after ..........?

I think you need to win your exchanges (attacks or parries) and "Change Range", and hope they don't follow you. Once you win enough CMs to get outside of their weapon reach, it becomes a speed contest (taking into account armour modifiers).

OK but if I have 3 CA, I can't (mathematically) escape because I can make 2 parry and 1 evade, but my opponent make attack, attack, counter evade and the last CA to regain combat distance.

 

[Deleriad]

Hi guys, I have a simple question.
If a PC or NPC wants to evade permanently (go home), as work rules?
For example, I'm engaged and I have 3 CA, my opponent 4 CA. Start a round and my first evade is success, opponent will not. And after ..........?

I think you need to win your exchanges (attacks or parries) and "Change Range", and hope they don't follow you. Once you win enough CMs to get outside of their weapon reach, it becomes a speed contest (taking into account armour modifiers).

OK but if I have 3 CA, I can't (mathematically) escape because I can make 2 parry and 1 evade, but my opponent make attack, attack, counter evade and the last CA to regain combat distance.

It's a little bit abstract but I believe it's supposed to work something like this.

1) If you successfully change range to disengage then the opponent can't attack you without moving.
2) Now you're disengaged if someone starts to run in your direction you can choose to run away too. At this point it becomes a race which means you pretty much ignore combat actions. I personally would treat it as an opposed Athletics contest. If someone's movement is faster than the other (due to armour penalty for example) I would give that person a bonus.

The key point here is that once someone's disengaged and is not hanging around to fight that you basically can't attack normally on your Combat Actions any more and Movement isn't measured in Combat Actions, it's measured in metres per Combat Round.


So say Cat has 3 CAs and an Initiative of 15 while Hibbsy has 4 CAs and an initiative of 18.
Init 18. Hibbsy attacks, Cat evades.
Init 15. Cat tries change range, Hibbsy chooses to counter-attack but doesn't beat Cat's Evade. Result, Cat is now disengaged and has started running.
Init 18, Hibbsy starts to run to chase after Cat.

At this point we're now in chasing territory so I would treat the attempt to catch Cat as an opposed Athletics test. If Hibbsy wins he catches up and could try an attack on the run. If Cat wins, he gets away. If no one wins, the chase continues. Exactly how far and how fast they run before it resolves depends on circumstances.

 

[Tamerlin]

At this point we're now in chasing territory so I would treat the attempt to catch Cat as an opposed Athletics test. If Hibbsy wins he catches up and could try an attack on the run. If Cat wins, he gets away. If no one wins, the chase continues. Exactly how far and how fast they run before it resolves depends on circumstances.

Nice explanation... I like that there's a way for a character who's outclassed by an opponent to at least have a chance to disengage and escape, rather than feeling mechanically forced to stand and fight to the death

 

[Caterpillar]

I think you need to win your exchanges (attacks or parries) and "Change Range", and hope they don't follow you. Once you win enough CMs to get outside of their weapon reach, it becomes a speed contest (taking into account armour modifiers).

OK but if I have 3 CA, I can't (mathematically) escape because I can make 2 parry and 1 evade, but my opponent make attack, attack, counter evade and the last CA to regain combat distance.

It's a little bit abstract but I believe it's supposed to work something like this.

1) If you successfully change range to disengage then the opponent can't attack you without moving.
2) Now you're disengaged if someone starts to run in your direction you can choose to run away too. At this point it becomes a race which means you pretty much ignore combat actions. I personally would treat it as an opposed Athletics contest. If someone's movement is faster than the other (due to armour penalty for example) I would give that person a bonus.

The key point here is that once someone's disengaged and is not hanging around to fight that you basically can't attack normally on your Combat Actions any more and Movement isn't measured in Combat Actions, it's measured in metres per Combat Round.


So say Cat has 3 CAs and an Initiative of 15 while Hibbsy has 4 CAs and an initiative of 18.
Init 18. Hibbsy attacks, Cat evades.
Init 15. Cat tries change range, Hibbsy chooses to counter-attack but doesn't beat Cat's Evade. Result, Cat is now disengaged and has started running.
Init 18, Hibbsy starts to run to chase after Cat.

At this point we're now in chasing territory so I would treat the attempt to catch Cat as an opposed Athletics test. If Hibbsy wins he catches up and could try an attack on the run. If Cat wins, he gets away. If no one wins, the chase continues. Exactly how far and how fast they run before it resolves depends on circumstances.

Very comprehensive explanation, thanks. But I have another, and final :lol: , question. If I run away from two opponents?