Barbettes/power/# in turret?

[cavebear]

1) As barbettes are described as being effectively heavy turrets, do they require the same power as the single, dual and triple turret does (I.E.: 1 power point)? The only power requirement I can find is for the weapons themselves.

2) Can you have more than one of the energy weapons in a barbette as only the missile barbette, which says it comes equipped with multi-launchers, seems to not allow more than one/barbette as it all ready has multi launchers.

I see barbettes along the lines of a WW1/WW2 navy ships secondary turret systems which could have between 1 and 4 guns per turret while I see bays more like the big 10"-18" guns of a battleship in which I would put 2 or 3 big guns into a bay unless it specifically states that there can be only one. Which would mean a lot of traveller art would be wrong and that is an idea that I would disagree with.

 

[EldritchFire]

Barbette's require only the power of the weapons. Since each barbette is its own emplacement—and you can only have one weapon type per barbette—there is no additional charge for the mounting.

Turrets can mount a variety of weapons, but each barbette is a specific emplacement. And no, you can't do a double or triple barbette.

 

[cavebear]

Barbette's require only the power of the weapons. Since each barbette is its own emplacement—and you can only have one weapon type per barbette—there is no additional charge for the mounting.

Turrets can mount a variety of weapons, but each barbette is a specific emplacement. And no, you can't do a double or triple barbette.

Thanks for the info. I have only been putting in single weapons but wanted more (in my greed - ) At least I don't have to change any of the designs I've been playing around with to learn this system

 

[cavebear]

Oh, almost forgot: would a missile barbette really just be like a VLS anyway? It's not like you need to point the missile at the target when you shoot. Been on enough missile shoots to know that much.

 

[EldritchFire]

Oh, almost forgot: would a missile barbette really just be like a VLS anyway? It's not like you need to point the missile at the target when you shoot. Been on enough missile shoots to know that much.

That is my take on it, yes. I see it more like what you see on Stargate with the Tau'ri ships, not so much Star Trek with the specific-facing torpedo tubes.

 

[Jeraa]

Oh, almost forgot: would a missile barbette really just be like a VLS anyway? It's not like you need to point the missile at the target when you shoot. Been on enough missile shoots to know that much.

Missiles don't operate in space like they do in atmosphere. In atmosphere, they have fins that can maneuver them as it goes, while in space every bit of movement must come directly from the engines as there isn't a medium like air to help turn the missile. Every bit of Thrust stopping the missile going in the wrong direction is Thrust that isn't getting applied to the missile in the correct direction.

An atmospheric missile can keep accelerating, even as it is going in the wrong direction, as its forward movement is what turn the missile. Space missiles don't have that luxury.

 

[Condottiere]

I haven't gotten around to barbettes yet, so I hadn't noticed, and could be inferred that from the large energy requirements that it would be part of the overhead.

Except, it looks like missiles have no energy requirements.

 

[cavebear]

Missiles don't operate in space like they do in atmosphere. In atmosphere, they have fins that can maneuver them as it goes, while in space every bit of movement must come directly from the engines as there isn't a medium like air to help turn the missile. Every bit of Thrust stopping the missile going in the wrong direction is Thrust that isn't getting applied to the missile in the correct direction.

An atmospheric missile can keep accelerating, even as it is going in the wrong direction, as its forward movement is what turn the missile. Space missiles don't have that luxury.

Yes I know. We are not talking about atmospheric missiles though. Missiles operating in a vacuum require manoeuvring thrusters to change direction and that is fine. None of the missiles I design have fins.

I do not see missiles getting more than a push out of the container before they align on the enemy using their manoeuvring thrusters and accelerate after the target.

 

[cavebear]

...Except, it looks like missiles have no energy requirements.

That is where I think there may be an issue. The turret missile system requires power but the barbette missile system does not.

 

[Jeraa]

Yes I know. We are not talking about atmospheric missiles though. Missiles operating in a vacuum require manoeuvring thrusters to change direction and that is fine. None of the missiles I design have fins.

I do not see missiles getting more than a push out of the container before they align on the enemy using their manoeuvring thrusters and accelerate after the target.

Even if just a little push out of the container,they still have the firing ships vector. That has to be overcome before the missile begins moving in the correct direction. A powered launch from a movable launcher can give the missile the extra boost it needs to overcome the firing ships vector and get the missile going to where it is supposed to be that much faster.

Unless you only fire at ships that are in the same direction as your ship is currently traveling (or are firing while stationary), some of the missiles thrust will need to be expended stopping the missile from going in the wrong direction at first.

 

[Condottiere]

Fifty tonne bay needs five power points; weightwise would indicate at least one, salvo size would indicate two points.

 

[cavebear]

Even if just a little push out of the container,they still have the firing ships vector. That has to be overcome before the missile begins moving in the correct direction. A powered launch from a movable launcher can give the missile the extra boost it needs to overcome the firing ships vector and get the missile going to where it is supposed to be that much faster.

Unless you only fire at ships that are in the same direction as your ship is currently traveling (or are firing while stationary), some of the missiles thrust will need to be expended stopping the missile from going in the wrong direction at first.

True.

 

[cavebear]

Fifty tonne bay needs five power points; weightwise would indicate at least one, salvo size would indicate two points.

I like your idea of using 2 power points for a missile barbette. I think that will be very doable when putting in your power plant as even with dozens of missile barbettes it would not take a very drastic increase in the tonnage of your power plant to manage it. Say 2 dozen missile barbettes at 2 PP each is 48 PP's total divided by 20 (assuming you are using a TL-15 fusion power plant) is only an increase of 2.4 tons + the extra fuel tonnage of .24 tons for 4 weeks operations.

 

[phavoc]

Power points for missile launchers should be quite small. 1 point of power should easily suffice for the machinery to load a missile round, whether it be in a turret or a barbette.

Energy weapons would be far more of energy hogs than a mechanical device.

 

[cavebear]

Power points for missile launchers should be quite small. 1 point of power should easily suffice for the machinery to load a missile round, whether it be in a turret or a barbette.

Energy weapons would be far more of energy hogs than a mechanical device.

You know, one of the problems with using power points is getting your head around just how much power a single power point actually represents :shock: . I think that you may be right when you suggest using just 1 power point vice 2 power points when what you are powering is, for the most part, a mechanical system.

Two power points, when you think about just what you are using the power for, is probably overkill. It only takes a couple of emergency power 8 cylinder diesel engines to provide working electrical energy for a fairly large number of power intensive systems on a modern naval vessel so when you are looking at MW's on a ship, I don't think that the missile system would really need a nuclear power plant right beside it to give it just enough power to run :lol:

So should we go ahead and suggest that at least one power point be ascribed to the missile barbette system before the book gets sent to the printers? :?:

 

[phavoc]

Power points for missile launchers should be quite small. 1 point of power should easily suffice for the machinery to load a missile round, whether it be in a turret or a barbette.

Energy weapons would be far more of energy hogs than a mechanical device.

You know, one of the problems with using power points is getting your head around just how much power a single power point actually represents :shock: . I think that you may be right when you suggest using just 1 power point vice 2 power points when what you are powering is, for the most part, a mechanical system.

Two power points, when you think about just what you are using the power for, is probably overkill. It only takes a couple of emergency power 8 cylinder diesel engines to provide working electrical energy for a fairly large number of power intensive systems on a modern naval vessel so when you are looking at MW's on a ship, I don't think that the missile system would really need a nuclear power plant right beside it to give it just enough power to run :lol:

So should we go ahead and suggest that at least one power point be ascribed to the missile barbette system before the book gets sent to the printers? :?:

Unless they changed the information in the original HG tables, barbettes and turret missile weapons required 0 power. Bays did require power, though the scale of 5/10/50 for small/medium/large still doesn't make sense when you think about what it's doing. A large mass driver bay, which actually needs power to accelerate the rounds takes 40 power whereas the missile bay, which just needs to drive feeding mechanisms, needs 50.

But good luck in getting them to change it. It's been pointed out before and the PTB have made up their minds.

 

[cavebear]

Unless they changed the information in the original HG tables, barbettes and turret missile weapons required 0 power. Bays did require power, though the scale of 5/10/50 for small/medium/large still doesn't make sense when you think about what it's doing. A large mass driver bay, which actually needs power to accelerate the rounds takes 40 power whereas the missile bay, which just needs to drive feeding mechanisms, needs 50.

But good luck in getting them to change it. It's been pointed out before and the PTB have made up their minds.

It is the turrets themselves that require the power and the missile system inside that doesn't require the power but barbettes which are described as being heavy turrets do not need power. They should though in order to keep in line with the fact that a lighter and smaller turret does need the power. Well, at least that is my take but I do like having power to do more than turn the barbette but to actually keep loading missiles into the firing system itself.

 

[phavoc]

It is the turrets themselves that require the power and the missile system inside that doesn't require the power but barbettes which are described as being heavy turrets do not need power. They should though in order to keep in line with the fact that a lighter and smaller turret does need the power. Well, at least that is my take but I do like having power to do more than turn the barbette but to actually keep loading missiles into the firing system itself.

It is a reasonable assumption to think that you should have to expend a little power for the mechanical machinery to move and load missiles. For smaller ships a VLS system would essentially mean 0 power because there is no magazine but the launcher itself. And the amount of power would be relatively trivial. But when you get into bay-sized systems, with their multiple launching mechanisms, complicated magazine feeds, etc, that's where you'd want some power requirements - though maybe not the ones listed in HG.

 

[Condottiere]

A barbette is five times bigger than a turret.

 

[cavebear]

A barbette is five times bigger than a turret.

Yes! So should it not have some power use too just like the regular sized turrets? I would think it should but it isn't in the book