Balance

[l33tpenguin]

So, this is what it is all about, right? Balance. Not Rock paper chopsticks balance, but real balance (not perfect, just real).

So, lets look at our experiance. Tournaments and the like are where it really matters. Since (as far as I know) a lot of the times you take a specific fleet build to a tourny and have to fight against everyone with it (correct me if I'm wrong?), what fleets have you fielded or seen fielded that stand a chance of winning? Not saying it has to be a 100% win. Even 35-40% is acceptable.

If the game was well balanced, all races should be capable of fielding a fleet with around a 40-60% chance of winning against a random (well balanced, i.e. capable of the same) fleet. Some, you will do better against, say 60%, some you will do worst against, but I think it is safe to say that a well balanced game would put everyone in the 40-60% bracket. Thats enough tolerance to still be fun, am I right?

In both 5 point raid and 5 point battle, what are your examples of a well balanced fleet that stands a good chance at coming out on top if played well? Because, in all honesty, THATS what should matter. Not how cheese your fleet is, but how well you play it.

Also, how will they fair? Are they a cheese fleet (5 dozen Saggies)? Are they strong against everything but e-mine heavy fleets or fighters? What are their strenghts and weaknesses? On average, if facing off against a random opponent with similar skill, how often would you expect to win? (If you will slaughter 9 out of 10, but 1 fleet will totally dominate you, thats still 90%).

The idea behind this is to look at the fleets that have to utilize straight cheese to win, the ones that almost never win and the ones that have a large number of builds that can win, or fair well, on average.

Cheese should be fixed (5 dozen Saggies should not be legal...). Never winning should be fixed. The averages, though, I think those are ok

 

[Da Boss]

hmm I have played in a variety of tournaments (I think without exception enjoyable) mostly due to my opponents and the others at the events

My first tourney was 1st Ed - I played Centauri And did well (Primus, Vorchar and Maximus fleet), 2nd not so well - again Centauri, same with third (last I think).

2nd Ed have played almost without exception Centauri and did OK with them - nothing spectactular apart from my Last tourney at Warlords of Walsal where I came third 8)

Played Shadows once and came third - gotta love them......ID Games

Played my own Raiders list at the Dilgar war tourney and did not come last :wink: (nearly)

so with my Centauri have come last and third and most of the places in between.

my standard 5 pt raid fleet (posted lots of times)

Liati, Balvarin (4 Sentri, 4 Razik), Maximus, 3 x Demos

Shadows - 5 Scouts

5 pt Battle - probably

Liati, Primus (x2), Balvarin x2, 2 Demos, 1 Maximus, 1 Kutai and 2 Havens



Shadows - 1 Warship and 6 Scouts

 

[Davesaint]

Well, I shall crawl out of my non-posting mode and chime in. I have a hard time with the whole balance issue. Part of the problem in using tournament results in determining whether or not a fleet is balanced or any good depends on how the given fleet is constructed. For example, Triggy was a terror on the tournament circut with his 5 milani, 10 tiraca/brisaria fleet. The questions becomes is the Abbai balanced? Well, not really. I tend to think they are on the weaker end of the scale. The reason the above fleet was sucessful goes back to the swarm fleet issue.

All of this discussion regarding new rules and ways to effect balance are kind of moot until we as a group decide on what type of philosophy we want with the game. Do we want a game where Primus, G'Quans, and Omegas are feard ships? Do we want a game where you are rewarded for bringing the big ship? Or do we want a game in which the cheap, fast ship that goes in harms way is the king.

To this point I am not sure which way the game is going.

I was reading on the Narn rules changes and I noticed that a couple of posters felt that all War level hulls should be brought up to the level of the G'Vrahn, and that the G'Vrahn should be better than the BinTak because it is a later ship. I hate both of these concepts. First, I hate power creap in game systems. It drives me nuts. You tend to see it most in collectable games such as Axis and Allies Minis. What will happen eventually is that you won't be able to win unless you have the newest supplement. That type of thing drives people from the game. Second, almost Nobody plays with In Service Dates. So who gives a darn as to when something came out. You should be able to field a fleet from any age and still be competative.


Well, I am off my soapbox for now.


Dave

 

[l33tpenguin]

I understand what you are saying, which is part of why I started this thread. To see WHY certain ships/fleets/races are good at winning. If you have a certain build, what makes it strong? What gives it a chance at winning.

You cited triggys Abbai fleet. Most will agree that the Abbai are on the low end of the power scale. It was because of swarms that this fleet was powerful. What about powerful non swarm fleets? What about strong 5 battle fleets that are mostly battle or raid level ships (I don't think taking some raid is swarming in a battle level match)?

As far as builds go, I think this game should be a balance. There SHOULD be some fleets that are swarms. Drazi and Drahk for example. ISA to a lesser extent. A 5 battle fleet of only white stars seems perfectly reasonable for a fleet, the ISA fleet is after all the White Star fleet. Lets not talk about whether the WS is broken, pls, that's another topic altogether.

But ACtA should be an environment where big ships are competitive as well. A War level ship should be just as valuable as the equivalent of skirmish level ships. So, as per my original comment, I want to take a look at what people have fielded and see where the balance lies. Are more fleets strong because they use swarms? Which races can take a variety of ship selections and still stand a good chance?

 

[CZuschlag]

I do not find any significant quantity of Demos balanced.

In my fleets of expertise, these should be reasonably fair fleets (they'll all get beat by the swarm):

1). Dilgar:
5 Raid -- Fast
1 Garasoch
1 Targrath
2 Ochliavita
2 Jashakar Vi
2 Jashakar

I don't think the Tae is a fair ship.

5 Raid -- Slow
1 Garasoch
2 Khatrik So
3 Rohric
2 Jashakar Vi

Very Rock-Paper-Scissorsy, but on average this is a fair fleet. I don't think any of these are broken ships or broken combinatons.

5 Battle - Fast

1 Tikrit
2 Targrath
2 Omelos
1 Garasoch
2 Ochliavita
1 Ochliavita Ki
3 Jashakar Vi
2 Jashakar
4 extra Thorun flights

Only 1 Ochliavita Ki makes it workable.

5 Battle - Slow.

2 Wahant
2 Khatrik So
1 Garasoch
5 Rohric
2 Jashakar Vi

Meat-or-cake. Could drop the Wahant for a Khatrik So, and 2 more Rohric.

 

[Ripple]

Not sure how to find balance right now.

Abbai - a Lakara, Bimith, 2x Milani, 3x Tiraca and a Brisaria should be a balanced build, but it hasn't won a game to my knowledge.

Drazi - more swarmy by nature of boresight... I would think a Firehawk, 2x Darkhawk, 3x Strikehawk, 2x Solarhawk, Guardhawk, and 1 wing of Star Snakes should be balanced. Might even be, but not sure...

EA - Omega, Hyperion, 3x Olympus, Oracle should work too... but likely won't work that well.

Anyway... those would be things I would like to see work well...


Ripple

 

[SolarMacharious]

5 point Raid, Centauri

Primus
Balvarin with assorted fighters
4x vorchan (usually squadroned)


5 point battle, Centauri

Primus
Secondus
Balvarin, Maximus, Corvan
Centurion, 2x vorchan
Centurion, 2x vorchan
(Vorchans always squadroned, centurions usually squadroned.)

5 point War, Centauri

Octurion
Primus, Balvarin, Vorchan x2
Primus, Balvarin, Vorchan x2
Secondus, Centurion, Maximus x2
Dargan/laiti, Centurion, Corvan, Kutai x2
(Vorchans always squadroned, Centurions always squadroned, kutais with Octurion, or as initiative sinks, Primi probably squadroned)

Simple, effective, and not too many initiative sinks. And no dont tell me to break up my beloved vorchan squadrons of 4, they have been known to kill sharlins in one turn of shooting.

 

[Davesaint]

5 point Raid, Centauri

Primus
Balvarin with assorted fighters
4x vorchan (usually squadroned)


5 point battle, Centauri

Primus
Secondus
Balvarin, Maximus, Corvan
Centurion, 2x vorchan
Centurion, 2x vorchan
(Vorchans always squadroned, centurions usually squadroned.)

5 point War, Centauri

Octurion
Primus, Balvarin, Vorchan x2
Primus, Balvarin, Vorchan x2
Secondus, Centurion, Maximus x2
Dargan/laiti, Centurion, Corvan, Kutai x2
(Vorchans always squadroned, Centurions always squadroned, kutais with Octurion, or as initiative sinks, Primi probably squadroned)

Simple, effective, and not too many initiative sinks. And no dont tell me to break up my beloved vorchan squadrons of 4, they have been known to kill sharlins in one turn of shooting.

And that is the problem with the Vorchan/Demos.


Dave

 

[Hindsight]

What if certain craft were 0-1, or 1+, or 1-3 like in other games. You can only field X number. Obviously the White Star isn't helped by that, they are meant to be fielded en mass, but it'd limit how many of something you can see on the table. Demos could be maybe 0-2 or something, meaning if you field any, you can only field 2 max for every 5 points of the PL.

 

[Ministalker]

5 point Raid, ISA
4x White Stars (Assorted WS and/or WSII)
4x Blue Stars

5 Point Battle ISA
1x White Star Carrier
1x White Star Gunship
3x White Star (not WSII)
4x Blue Star


5 point Raid, Psi Corps
1x Hunter
1x Mothership
2x Chronos (1FAP EA Allies)
1x Fighter Carrier
2x Shadowcloack

5 point Battle, Psi Corps
2x Hunter
1x Apollo (1FAP EA Allies)
2x Mothership
4x Chronos (1FAP EA Allies)


5 point Raid, Pak'Ma'Ra
1x Hurr Gunship
2x Ikorta (Squadron)
4x Sunhawk (Squadron)
12x Porfati

5 point Battle, Pak'Ma'Ra
2x Hurr Gunship
2x Urik'Hal
4x Ikorta (2x2 squadron)
4x Sunhawk (Squadron)
12x Porfati

 

[Hindsight]

Those are not accurate to the new FAP.

 

[Ripple]

Didn't try 5 Battle

Abbai - Juyaca, Lakara, 4x Milani, 2x Tiraca, 2x Brisaria
tactics - Juyaca, Lakara and one Brisaria act together, 4x Milani with Brisaria act together, two Tiraca act as independent or with second Brisaria depending on whether you need sinks or not.

Drazi - Stormfalcon, 4x Firehawk, Jumphawk, 3x Strikehawks, 2x Darkhawks, Guardhawk, Eyehawk, Claweagle, wing of Star Snakes
I actually think that one is clear and issue here is a lot of slow loading, wish it was more viable to skip down from the Firehawks here to skirmish, but its not under the new FAP.

EA (for my standard race) - 2x Omega, Avenger, 2x Hyperion, 3x Olympus, 2x Oracle, 2 wings of T-bolts or two Hermes.

Narn - 2 x G'Quan, 2x Var'nic, Dag'kar, G'Karith, 3x T'Rakk, 2x of the torp cutter. Not sure on that fleet... but I'd like to be able to field it.

Ripple

 

[eldiablito]

I'll give it a go... IMO, these should represent the "standard" and fluffy fleets; best part of all, they even work well too!


Minbari 5 point Raid:

• 
  -1 Tinashi
  -1 Tigara, Teshlan or Ashinta
  -1 Tigara, Teshlan or Ashinta
  -2 Torotha

Minbari 5 point Battle:

• 
  -1 Sharlin
  -1 Tinashi
  -1 Tigara/Teshlan and 2 Torotha
  -1 Ashinta and 2 Torotha

Vree 5 point Raid:

• -1 Xill
  -1 Xill
  -2 Vaarl
  -2 Xixx
  -1 Xeel & 2 Xarr

Vree 5 point Battle:

• -1 Xonn
  -1 Xill, 1 Vaarl & 2 Xarr
  -1 Xill, 1 Vaarl & 2 Xarr
  -1 Xill, 2 Xixx or Xeel
  -1 Xill, 2 Xixx or Xeel

And my most recent experiences...

5 point Raid Brakiri:

• -1 Brikorta & 1 Shakara
  -1 Ikorta & 1 Shakara
  -1 Brokados
  -1 Haltona
  -1 Halik

5 point Battle Brakiri:

• -1 Kaliva
  -1 Kaliva
  -1 Brokados & 2 Brikorta/Ikorta
  -1 Halik & 2 Shakara
  -2 Haltona

 

[SolarMacharious]

And that is the problem with the Vorchan/Demos.


Dave

Muhahahahahahahahahahaha

edit: just because no one else squadrons little ships

 

[Taran]

At my last and only ACTA tourney, the fleets that came in 1st through 3rd were:

6 Raid, Mandatory at least 1 Battle Level or higher Ship

1st
ISA
Gunship
2WS
Stuteeka
4BS

2nd
Narn
G'Vrahn
3 Thentus
2 Sho'Kov

3rd
ISA (me)
Gunship
2 WS
Stuteeka
Liandra
2 BS

The vast majority of the difference between the tourney scores were in fleet composition and appearance.

This was prior to the Gaim changes or any of the PnP proposed changes. But I think all 3 (well, Both) fleets would stand a good chance against any enemy.

I have also seen an EA: Crusade fleet that showed an awful lot of promise
2 Marathon
4 Chronos