Back after a mini hiatus - Questions?

[Nerhesi]

Greetings all!

I had disappeared for a few months unfortunately due to some iRL issues. I find myself with a bit more time now and I've missed some great conversations it seems! Given my role in HG2, I'm available to privilege clarity / field critique for future publications and continuos improvement! So pls fire away (or link to existing questions) and I'll do my best!

Sam Wissa

 

[alex_greene]

I had disappeared for a few months unfortunately due to some iRL issues.

Welcome back.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Good to see you back!

We have had some discussions about firmpoints and fixed mounts lately.


1) How many weapons can be mounted to a fixed mount on a firmpoint?
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=909075#p909075


2) Can a barbette weapon be mounted to a fixed mount, since barbettes are "heavy turrets"?
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=910983#p910983


3) Is a firmpoint a fixed mount or is a fixed mount mounted on a firmpoint?
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=911769#p911769


4) Are hardpoints & firmpoints specified at design or can weapons be added afterwards?
E.g. the shuttle and free trader have no specified weapon stations.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'll respond to the above items in this thread shortly.

Disclaimer: These responses are clarification on design intent and RAW. I'll also highlight areas where I did not author or finalize the text/rules. Although - the latter is rather minor

 

[Nerhesi]

How many Weapons can be mounted to a fixed mount on a firm point?

One weapon on small craft.
Up to 3 on normal craft fixed points.

My logical train of thought here:
Smallcraft have Firm Points (pg 24)
A firm point is either a fixed mount or single turret (pg 24).
If you mount more than 1 weapon per fixed point, you are circumventing the "3 weapon" maximum on small craft (3 single turret/weapons or barbette + turret/weapons)

So the confusion arises when you try to mount multiple weapons to a "fixed point" that is on a "firm point". While it is stated that small-craft have additional limitations, it does not clarify that a Firm Point can only have 1 weapon for small craft. The intent is such however. You cannnot mount 9 pulse lasers on a 75 ton craft with 3 fixedpoint firm points... meanwhile you'd only be able to mount 3 pulse laser turrets. The turret limits clarify it somewhat but it is not explicity. An interpretation of having multiple weapons per firm point simply creates a must-use-always exploiut (3x triple pulse lasers with extend range, or 3x missile racks and so on)

A smallcraft can have 3 weapon systems at maximum (Depending on size). These weapon systems are either a single turret style or fixed point weapon, or barbettes (which counting as two (2) of those systems).

Can a barbette be mounted to a fixed point?

No.
Turrets and fixed mounts are defined on page 24 in their own section labelled "Turrets and Fixed Mounts".
Barbettes are in a seperate section on page 25. You can no more mount a barbette on a fixed point then you can a bay on a fixed point.


Is a firm point a fixed mount or is a fixed mount a firm point?

A firm point is basically a downgrade/limitation of turret, fixed mount or barbette.

Your range is reduced.
Your power is reduced.
What weapons can be mounted there are limited (Barbette, Or Single turret Weapon only as per the list on top of page 24)


Can firmpoints/hardpoints be added later?

Not indicated one way or the other.
Historically, hard points were always "available" - but sometimes empty.
I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

 

[-Daniel-]

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

I would expect this to be the case. It seems like this has been the assumption in every version I have played.

In any case, it is nice you could be active again. :mrgreen:

 

[Condottiere]

I doubt anyone seriously ever considered trying to stuff firmpoints with more than one weapon, probably more confused if you're forced to install all of them in one area.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Thank you.

Is a firm point a fixed mount or is a fixed mount a firm point?

A firm point is basically a downgrade/limitation of turret, fixed mount or barbette.

That is not quite the question I asked. I have assumed, for historical reasons, that a firmpoint is a separate component to which you can mount turrets, fixed mounts, or barbettes.

On the other hand the rules say that a firmpoint IS a fixed mount, which sounds strange to me.

A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount

So the question is: Is the firmpoint a component to which you can mount a fixed mount, or is a firmpoint a fixed mount? (Or am I too literal-minded again?)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

I would expect this to be the case. It seems like this has been the assumption in every version I have played.

In CT a hardpoint was a separate component that had to be specified during design. E.g. a Subsidised Merchant had only two hardpoints and could therefore only ever have two turrets, despite using a 400 dT hull..

 

[alex_greene]

From High Guard:-

Small Craft
Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret.

 

[EldritchFire]

How many Weapons can be mounted to a fixed mount on a firm point?

One weapon on small craft.
Up to 3 on normal craft fixed points.

My logical train of thought here:
Smallcraft have Firm Points (pg 24)
A firm point is either a fixed mount or single turret (pg 24).
If you mount more than 1 weapon per fixed point, you are circumventing the "3 weapon" maximum on small craft (3 single turret/weapons or barbette + turret/weapons)

So the confusion arises when you try to mount multiple weapons to a "fixed point" that is on a "firm point". While it is stated that small-craft have additional limitations, it does not clarify that a Firm Point can only have 1 weapon for small craft. The intent is such however. You cannnot mount 9 pulse lasers on a 75 ton craft with 3 fixedpoint firm points... meanwhile you'd only be able to mount 3 pulse laser turrets. The turret limits clarify it somewhat but it is not explicity. An interpretation of having multiple weapons per firm point simply creates a must-use-always exploiut (3x triple pulse lasers with extend range, or 3x missile racks and so on)

A smallcraft can have 3 weapon systems at maximum (Depending on size). These weapon systems are either a single turret style or fixed point weapon, or barbettes (which counting as two (2) of those systems).

…

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think that fits the 'toolbox' aspect of Traveller. There are many examples of smallcraft having more than one weapon on a firmpoint (just to name a few.):

• TIE fighters (Star Wars) have dual-linked laser cannons
• Death Gliders (Stargate) have two staff cannons
• Vipers (BSG) have two linked machine guns
• Y-wings (Star Wars) have dual-linked laser cannons, dual-linked ion cannons, and proton torpedo launchers
• X-302s (Stargate) have two linked railguns and missiles

I understand that for some (TIE fighter, Death Glider, Viper, etc) I could just have two of the weapons in question. But if I can only use one at a time (no benefit for two weapons unless they're in the same firmpoint/hardpoint/turret) I don't see a reason to have two.

Again, just my thoughts, and I do understand your point about avoiding three triple-weapon systems. But won't the cost alone make that not worthwhile? Also, most smallcraft can't fire more than one weapon system a round anyway…so having three triple-weapons is beyond excessive.

 

[-Daniel-]

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

I would expect this to be the case. It seems like this has been the assumption in every version I have played.

In CT a hardpoint was a separate component that had to be specified during design. E.g. a Subsidised Merchant had only two hardpoints and could therefore only ever have two turrets, despite using a 400 dT hull..

Yes, bu the statement was you could add the weapons after the fact. And it has always been the case.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, bu the statement was you could add the weapons after the fact. And it has always been the case.

I have never interpreted it that way. Do you have a specific quote?

Turrets: Weapons may be mounted in turrets emplaced on the hull. Turrets require only that a hardpoint be designated and created during construction.

LBB5, p30.

 

[-Daniel-]

Yes, bu the statement was you could add the weapons after the fact. And it has always been the case.

I have never interpreted it that way. Do you have a specific quote?

Turrets: Weapons may be mounted in turrets emplaced on the hull. Turrets require only that a hardpoint be designated and created during construction.

LBB5, p30.

Another Dilbert, you are so funny.

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

He didn't say add hard points after the fact, he said weapons. You are getting worked up about the wrong thing.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

He didn't say add hard points after the fact, he said weapons. You are getting worked up about the wrong thing.

Then I misunderstood you, sorry. I thought we talked about adding hardpoints to existing ships?

 

[Sigtrygg]

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think that fits the 'toolbox' aspect of Traveller. There are many examples of smallcraft having more than one weapon on a firmpoint (just to name a few.):

• TIE fighters (Star Wars) have dual-linked laser cannons
• Death Gliders (Stargate) have two staff cannons
• Vipers (BSG) have two linked machine guns
• Y-wings (Star Wars) have dual-linked laser cannons, dual-linked ion cannons, and proton torpedo launchers
• X-302s (Stargate) have two linked railguns and missiles

I understand that for some (TIE fighter, Death Glider, Viper, etc) I could just have two of the weapons in question. But if I can only use one at a time (no benefit for two weapons unless they're in the same firmpoint/hardpoint/turret) I don't see a reason to have two.

Again, just my thoughts, and I do understand your point about avoiding three triple-weapon systems. But won't the cost alone make that not worthwhile? Also, most smallcraft can't fire more than one weapon system a round anyway…so having three triple-weapons is beyond excessive.

There is a considerable difference between the cinematic nonsense promoted by the ships and shows/movies you have mentioned and established Traveller ship combat paradigms.

Everything you quote would be better modelled as a vehicle and should use the vehicle combat rules and vehicle scale weapons.

They all fight at visual range within a few hundred metres of each other, not the light second range of Traveller weapons.

They all maneuver according to Hollywood physics rather than the laws defined by Sir Isaac that Traveller has used in every iteration up until Mongoose.

 

[-Daniel-]

I cannot weigh in from a rules perspective because it was not really discussed, but probably assumed that you can add weapons later with the appropriate facilties.

He didn't say add hard points after the fact, he said weapons. You are getting worked up about the wrong thing.

Then I misunderstood you, sorry. I thought we talked about adding hardpoints to existing ships?

Not a problem. For the most part I think we see things the same so I realized there was a miss going on. If he meant to say you could add hard points later, then that would be something different. And if he meant that, then I would follow your thinking that they need to be designed in.

 

[phavoc]

There is a considerable difference between the cinematic nonsense promoted by the ships and shows/movies you have mentioned and established Traveller ship combat paradigms.

Everything you quote would be better modelled as a vehicle and should use the vehicle combat rules and vehicle scale weapons.

They all fight at visual range within a few hundred metres of each other, not the light second range of Traveller weapons.

They all maneuver according to Hollywood physics rather than the laws defined by Sir Isaac that Traveller has used in every iteration up until Mongoose.

One could logically argue the other way - that the Traveller combat paradigm is also nonsense. 1 light second is 300,000 Km. Even with light-speed weaponry, hitting a moving target that is trying NOT to get hit is going to be more luck than anything else. Sure, if you have enough weapons you can plot all the potential positions and you have a chance to hit with ONE weapon. So the EFFECTIVE combat range is going to be determined by the size of your opponent, their speed, and the number of weapons you have to bracket all potential locations.

Hollywood physics for space fights is far more entertaining than reality. And let's be honest, when your combat system has a vessel that has been accelerating for days suddenly having it's velocity reset to zero when being encountered is no more silly than etheric rudders allowing X-wings to maneuver in space like they were flying in an atmosphere.

Though I'm not clear on what you are referencing in the MGT maneuvers being different than previous versions.

 

[Condottiere]

I think the issue of smallcraft weaponry range limitations in Mongoose Second is forced, and no explanation is given, satisfactory or otherwise, but I'll play along.

 

[EldritchFire]

There is a considerable difference between the cinematic nonsense promoted by the ships and shows/movies you have mentioned and established Traveller ship combat paradigms.

Everything you quote would be better modelled as a vehicle and should use the vehicle combat rules and vehicle scale weapons.

They all fight at visual range within a few hundred metres of each other, not the light second range of Traveller weapons.

They all maneuver according to Hollywood physics rather than the laws defined by Sir Isaac that Traveller has used in every iteration up until Mongoose.

I did think about making them vehicles, but most of them are very capable of damaging starship-scale targets, so vehicle rules don't make that much sense. Granted, there may be some options to 'upgrade' vehicle-scale weapons to starship scale, but until the book comes out I will be in the dark on that.

And honestly, the starship combat rules aren't following Newtonian laws anyway, so why must X-wings? I'm not a physicist, but thrust should be additive, right? An object in motion and all that? But according to the rules, you can expend 9Gs of thrust in one round, and the very next not spend any and your velocity is zero.

Also, perhaps more importantly, what those TV shows and movies show is awesome. And that's the game I want to play. I want to have awesome PCs doing awesome things.

Again, my opinion, YMMV, etc.