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B5 Tech Levels
- Thread starter Allensh
- Start date
lastbesthope
Mongoose
As for the rotating section of the Omega blocking fire arcs in combat, some B5 sources speak of locking the rotating section when going into combat, which would alleviate that problem a little.
LBH
LBH
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Stofsk said:Also, no-one has attempted to counter my other points, that those engine pods need to have fuel lines from the centre of mass where they're stored to the pods where they're burned. Four wings mean four fuel lines, and the problem you get is they each have to be armoured to prevent crippling or catastrophic damage being inflicted in the event of a glancing blow, and the problem is armour increases mass (which means you risk sacrificing maneuoverability). If you go without, your space fighter has several weak points that put the pilot's life in jeopardy.
There is also no way for the pilot to quickly turn his head to see if anyone is on his six. I know pilots in B5 often perform the 'crazy ivan' maneuovre to attack bogies on their six, but one wonders how they knew they were there. I suppose you could have rear cameras that lets a pilot know what's in store for him, but I'm just not comfortable with such a design. Imagine driving a car designed so that you can't turn your head and see what's behind you. No mirrors, no way to do a head check... what if something happened to the rear-mounted camera - easily conceivable in a combat situation - effectively your pilot would be blind.
I like the Star Fury, I just don't think it's all that great from a technical perspective.
Point the first, who says the fuel is stored centrally, it could be in individual tanks for each engine/wing.
Point the second, the cockpit no doubt has a 3-D radar depiction of sorts allowing the pilot to see where the enemy lies, Imean a lot of space combat video games have it now, why not 23rd century space fighter craft.
LBH
lastbesthope
Mongoose
RojBlake said:These rotating sections. Wouldn't they generate gyroscopic forces making turning a bit lumpy?
Not lumpy, but there would be resistance, though not to turning IIRC.
Consider a bicycle wheel, you spin one up and it doesn't like being rolled(similar to when you turn left or right by leaning over on a bike.
In the orientation of the rotating section of an Omega, that would translate into a resistance to a pitching motion of the Omega caused by the rotating section.
Obviously the torque of the spin itself would also make the omega more inclined to roll in one direction than the other. The torque would need to be counteracted either by thrusaters, a counter rotating section (possibly within the visible one but of a higher density nearer the axis of spin, or some other means.
There would be some effect on a yawing motion as well, but it would be less noticeable than the perturbations in the pitch and roll axes.
Assuming I'm remembering my physics correctly and my brother remembers properly what an Omega looks like (he's a bit of a B5 noob)
LBH
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
lastbesthope said:As for the rotating section of the Omega blocking fire arcs in combat, some B5 sources speak of locking the rotating section when going into combat, which would alleviate that problem a little.
LBH
JMS said the original plan was for Omegas to lock their rotating sections when entering combat, but they left them spinning for the visual spectacle.
And on Narn gravity, IIRC JMS also said they don't use artificial graity on their ships as a rule.
Everytime we've seen the Omegas in combat those rotating sections keep right on spinning.lastbesthope said:As for the rotating section of the Omega blocking fire arcs in combat, some B5 sources speak of locking the rotating section when going into combat, which would alleviate that problem a little.
I would suggest to you that there wouldn't be much volume in those engine pods, and if the fuel is stored inside the wings, then that's not much different to what I originally said.lastbesthope said:Point the first, who says the fuel is stored centrally, it could be in individual tanks for each engine/wing.
*shrug* Maybe. But I don't think that's ever been seen in the show. IIRC the Thunderbolt had a kind of HUD or some kind of projection when CAPT Sheridan piloted an example after he declared B5's independence. The Thunderbolt was a relatively new design, probably entered service that year (because the previous year, we saw that the EAS Agammenon was equipped with the Aurora Star Furies), and it certainly had multiple improvements to the Aurora. Star Fury pilots wear bubble-helmets but no projection can be seen on their visors, so I don't know if they have what you describe.Point the second, the cockpit no doubt has a 3-D radar depiction of sorts allowing the pilot to see where the enemy lies, Imean a lot of space combat video games have it now, why not 23rd century space fighter craft.
On the other hand, in one of the episodes we saw the inside of a Star Fury as it was launched - kind of like seeing the pilot's POV as his ship gets released via the Cobra Bays. Damned if I can remember which episode. I have a dim recall that it might have been in season four, the episode where Sheridan decides to fight Clark's Earth.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Season 5 Episode 4
A Veiw from the Gallery
Telepath Leader Byron projects the Pilot's view for Mack to see since he really wants to know what it's like. (Haven't watched for 3 months so it might be Bo instead of Mack.)
It's one of my favorite episodes besides GROPOS.
Dave Chase
A Veiw from the Gallery
Telepath Leader Byron projects the Pilot's view for Mack to see since he really wants to know what it's like. (Haven't watched for 3 months so it might be Bo instead of Mack.)
It's one of my favorite episodes besides GROPOS.
Dave Chase
I'm new to the forum, so hello everyone.
Getting back to the the original topic, a few observations:
Earth has a TL of 9. Centauri Prime has a TL of 10. Minbar has a TL of 11 and Nar'shal has a TL of 9. It would be logical to assume that the homeworld would have the highest TL of the race.
YET
All PPG's, the Centauri Guardsman's Rifle and the Plasma Grenade ("Normally imported in from Narn") are listed as being TL12. The Olympus Clas Corvette has a "Cylinder TL12 Hull."
Something seems wrong here...
And while I'm at it, I might as well comment on the rest of this post.
I love B5. Best SF show ever. BUT... the entire concept of "space fighters" is untenable. Modern jet fighters are useful in naval combat for three reasons:
1. They are much faster than the ships they are attacking.
2. They have the ability to "come in low" skimming the waves and therefore avoiding detection until they come over the horizon.
3. A single fighter can carry enough munitions to sink all but the largest ships.
In space, none of these advantages apply. Your velocity in space is dependent upon how much thrust you apply for how long. There is (theoretically) no upper limit except the speed of light. The amount of acceleration you can apply is dependent more upon the limitations of the crew's bodies, which will remain the same for ship crews as for fighter pilots. Actually, the larger ship could probably mount better acceleration protection than the fighter. In other words, the fighter may be slightly more manueverable (since it's easier to move a smaller mass,) but it won't be any faster than the ship.
Second, in space you can't hide. As soon as you light up those engines, you're sending out a signature propagating at light speed that every vessel in the vicinity will see, and therefore be able to track and target you. You'd be shot down before you could get your weapons in range.
Third, in B5 as well as in nearly every other setting, space fighters do not carry enough firepower to destroy a capital ship. Consequently, the fighter is not a cost-effective weapons platform.
Finally, the main problem with the Omega's rotating section is that it's too small. The coriolis effect would cause problems. The difference in perceived gravity between your head and feet would be so great that you would constantly feel like you were standing on a slope, being dragged in the direction opposite the section's spin. this would cause disorientation and probably motion sickness.
Getting back to the the original topic, a few observations:
Earth has a TL of 9. Centauri Prime has a TL of 10. Minbar has a TL of 11 and Nar'shal has a TL of 9. It would be logical to assume that the homeworld would have the highest TL of the race.
YET
All PPG's, the Centauri Guardsman's Rifle and the Plasma Grenade ("Normally imported in from Narn") are listed as being TL12. The Olympus Clas Corvette has a "Cylinder TL12 Hull."
Something seems wrong here...
And while I'm at it, I might as well comment on the rest of this post.
I love B5. Best SF show ever. BUT... the entire concept of "space fighters" is untenable. Modern jet fighters are useful in naval combat for three reasons:
1. They are much faster than the ships they are attacking.
2. They have the ability to "come in low" skimming the waves and therefore avoiding detection until they come over the horizon.
3. A single fighter can carry enough munitions to sink all but the largest ships.
In space, none of these advantages apply. Your velocity in space is dependent upon how much thrust you apply for how long. There is (theoretically) no upper limit except the speed of light. The amount of acceleration you can apply is dependent more upon the limitations of the crew's bodies, which will remain the same for ship crews as for fighter pilots. Actually, the larger ship could probably mount better acceleration protection than the fighter. In other words, the fighter may be slightly more manueverable (since it's easier to move a smaller mass,) but it won't be any faster than the ship.
Second, in space you can't hide. As soon as you light up those engines, you're sending out a signature propagating at light speed that every vessel in the vicinity will see, and therefore be able to track and target you. You'd be shot down before you could get your weapons in range.
Third, in B5 as well as in nearly every other setting, space fighters do not carry enough firepower to destroy a capital ship. Consequently, the fighter is not a cost-effective weapons platform.
Finally, the main problem with the Omega's rotating section is that it's too small. The coriolis effect would cause problems. The difference in perceived gravity between your head and feet would be so great that you would constantly feel like you were standing on a slope, being dragged in the direction opposite the section's spin. this would cause disorientation and probably motion sickness.
AndrewW said:If there is a HUD that could easy be setup to allow all around vision.
Hum. Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ovX7KcW0Pk&feature=related at around 0:24 you can see roughly how it is inside star fury though not full view. Not sure what that's at the bottom center is. Might be screen that allows view elsewhere?
Valarian said:Personally, if anything, I think that the Starfury would be too manoeuvrable and would be unstable. Pilots would have to be very careful with the various thrust configurations or risk uncontrolled spinning.
That assumes they are flying totally on their own though. Current fighters are very unstable pretty much requiring computer aid to prevent crashing. Why wouldn't space fighters have computer aid? (especially when you think speed they are flying in)
Stofsk said:I know pilots in B5 often perform the 'crazy ivan' maneuovre to attack bogies on their six, but one wonders how they knew they were there.
Radars comes to mind. We have them now, where would that tech dissapear in future?
We know starfuries have viewscreens that show 3d model of ships ahead in real time. I don't see why that couldn't be switched easily to show say rear if required. Computer probably is programmed to alert pilot if someone comes behind. Doesn't seem that unreasonable when pilot is going to require tons of aid from computer in a first place.
arkhan said:Third, in B5 as well as in nearly every other setting, space fighters do not carry enough firepower to destroy a capital ship. Consequently, the fighter is not a cost-effective weapons platform.
.
Well they pack enough punch to be use according to JMS. Primus lost so badly against B5 aparantly due to the fighters(again based on JMS words).
So atleast the B5 creator has imagined them packing enough punch that atleast squadron of them can be a worry to bigger ships.
Regarding line of sight from starfury:
http://gizmodo.com/5248464/how-the-f+35-demon-helmet-looks-like-inside
If JMS had known this is coming up you can bet starfury pilots would be wearing something like that ;-)
Who needs cockpit that gives high visibility when you can get 360 degree line of sight view into your helmet? Cockpit can be anywhere you wish and as far as your visibility goes fighter(and you yourself) are invisible...
http://gizmodo.com/5248464/how-the-f+35-demon-helmet-looks-like-inside
If JMS had known this is coming up you can bet starfury pilots would be wearing something like that ;-)
Who needs cockpit that gives high visibility when you can get 360 degree line of sight view into your helmet? Cockpit can be anywhere you wish and as far as your visibility goes fighter(and you yourself) are invisible...
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:My guesses:
Earth Alliance: TL 10-11
Narn Regime: TL 11
Centauri Republic: TL 12-13
Minbari Federation: TL 14-15
League of Non-Aligned Worlds: TL 9-13
Vorlons and Shadows: TL 20+
Throwing AntiGravity concerns out the window for a moment, my wild guesses are based on how I think each set would fare against ships in the OTU.
The whole thing is based on my belief that the Centauri could give the Imperium a run for its money, and therefore I assume they're at TL 15.
Yes, I know this is apples and oranges. It's my party.
I assume that the Centauri can kick the Narn's butt any old day, so the Narn could be TL 13.
Earth, which reminds me of the Interstellar wars, would occupy TL10-11, but also their proximity to Narn tech makes me want to include TL12 as well.
I assume that the Minbari can kick the Centauri's butt any old day, so TL 17 for Minbar.
I assume that the Shadows and Vorlons can kick Minbar's butt any old day, so TL 19 for the ancients.
