B5:ACTA - scouting and concentrating fire

[AdrianH]

If a ship gets weapons redirection from a successful use of scouting and also declares Concentrate All Fire, does it get two re-rolls for the weapon system specified by the scout?

 

[Greg Smith]

No. You can never reroll a reroll.

 

[lastbesthope]

No, you can't stack rerolls from Scout and CAF.

However, in a campaign, might it be possible to burn an XP sice to force your opponent to reroll successful attacks after Scout/CAF Rerolls?

Which is in effect rerolling a reroll, but the rereroll is forced by the other player.

LBH

 

[Burger]

No, you can never re-roll a reroll!

 

[AdrianH]

That's what I thought but I can't find it in the rules.

 

[Burger]

Page 3 under the heading "Re-rolls"

 

[lastbesthope]

No, you can never re-roll a reroll!

I agree in terms of stacking CAF and Scout rerolls, but I think the special case I outline above merits consideration.

However I just looked up the section on XP dice, and it references reroll rules on P.3, so I suppose my special case would also be disallowed, which can be harsh.

Imagine:

Player A fires a 12 AD Twin Linked weapon at Player B's ship. Player B is in posession of 12 XP dice.

Player A rolls all 12 AD and misses with them all.
Player B laughs politely

Player A then rerolls all 12 AD due to twin-linked and hits with all 12 AD.
Player B, playing RAW cannot force rerolls of these dice using CP dice as they have already been rerolled, whereas he could have if Player A had hit with all 12 before rerolling.

Seems unfair to me.

I would say it would be better if Scout/CAF rerolls could not stack with each other, and seperately XP dice forced rerolls could not stack.

So in the above case, I suggest that Player B could use his Xp dice to force rerolls after the CAF reroll, but then Player A could not spend XP dice to reroll those XP rerolls.

LBH

 

[katadder]

but on that theory if forced to do a reroll of attack due to XP dice then any that miss would be allowed to reroll through twin link or CAF

thats why its best to leave it at just one reroll.

plus personally I hate XP dice forcing opponents to reroll stuff as this just breaks the minbari fleet - pass you stealth, minbari player makes you reroll it, broken.

 

[lastbesthope]

but on that theory if forced to do a reroll of attack due to XP dice then any that miss would be allowed to reroll through twin link or CAF

Only if you used your XP reroll before the CAF reroll, but nothing in the rules prevents you making poor tactical decisions (I'm proof of that) like that. For instance, Twin Linked doesn't force a reroll, you mayreroll, you don't have to.

thats why its best to leave it at just one reroll.

plus personally I hate XP dice forcing opponents to reroll stuff as this just breaks the minbari fleet - pass you stealth, minbari player makes you reroll it, broken.

Well you could mod that to prevent XP dice being used on stealth, but as I illustrate above with my 12 AD m iss then mass succeed, it's unfair that an XP deice can't reroll once there's something worth it rerolling in that case.

At least the upcoming campaign weekend won't have XP dice or we'd need a firm ruling quite soon.

LBH

 

[Burger]

There is a firm ruling, it's on page 3 under the heading "Re-rolls". It says, you can never re-roll a re-roll!

 

[AdrianH]

In that case, the system is broken.

Both players roll for initiative. Both players score the same after all modifiers are included; it's a tie, so they re-roll. The re-roll is still a tie. By that rule, they're not allowed to re-roll the re-roll, so who wins initiative?

Re: lbh's scenario of 12 twin-linked AD, it can also go the other way. All 12 hit, the opponent forces 12 re-rolls with XP, all 12 miss, and you're not allowed to use the weapon's twin-linked ability to try to get any back.

My guess is that the brief passage on p.3 is supposed to mean that any single cause for a re-roll only allows you one. You can't roll your AD, score some misses, use twin-linked to re-roll the misses, still score some misses, and use twin-linked again to re-roll those misses.

I agree with the suggestion that you can use XP's to force re-rolls after CAF/scout/TL; or you can use one of CAF/scout/TL/XP to get re-rolls after your opponent has force re-rolls on you provided you have not already used them to get a re-roll. XP's aside, you're allowed one re-roll from your choice of CAF/scout/TL; you can't stack them. Basically, each side gets at most one chance to force or gain a re-roll.

 

[Burger]

Both players roll for initiative. Both players score the same after all modifiers are included; it's a tie, so they re-roll. The re-roll is still a tie. By that rule, they're not allowed to re-roll the re-roll, so who wins initiative?

Not everything in the game which involves rolling dice again, is considered a re-roll as defined on page 3. Take beams for example, if you score a hit then you re-roll it, right? Beams are therefore the worst weapons in the game, you only get to re-roll once and if you miss the second time, you lose your original hit and have to accept the miss instead! So, beams are not "re-rolls", they are "accept the first result and roll again".

Tie-breakers are similar, they are not re-rolls. You're not re-rolling the same dice and discarding the result of the last; you're rolling another, which effectively adds another "decimal place" to your result.

Imagine a 3 player game, player A rolls 7, B and C roll 10. So B and C need to tie-break. B rolls 4 and C rolls 9. Now if the tie-break were a "re-roll" as defined on page 3, B and C would discard their previous result and take the new roll, even if it is worse. The initiative sequence would be B (init 4), A (init 7), C (init 9) which is surely wrong because B beat A originally. In actuality the sequence would be A (init 7), B (init 10.4), C (init 10.9).

 

[lastbesthope]

There is a firm ruling, it's on page 3 under the heading "Re-rolls". It says, you can never re-roll a re-roll!

At no point do I deny that's what the rules say, in fact I even refer to it attimes.

However I'm putting forward an alternate system, surely you can understand that Burger (of BBS fame) :lol:

@AdrianH, I agree the system on rerolls need fixed, but it's entirely seperate mechanic from rerolling initiative. Bad choice of example.

LBH

 

[AdrianH]

Both players roll for initiative. Both players score the same after all modifiers are included; it's a tie, so they re-roll. The re-roll is still a tie. By that rule, they're not allowed to re-roll the re-roll, so who wins initiative?

Not everything in the game which involves rolling dice again, is considered a re-roll as defined on page 3. Take beams for example, if you score a hit then you re-roll it, right?

No. A re-roll is where you roll the same die again in an attempt to reverse the original result. A beam hit grants you an additional die with which to try to get another hit. From page 3: "This simply means you may ignore the first failed result that a dice rolled, and roll again." A hit is not my idea of a failed result. However, your covert attempt to promote a beam system which does not include expansion rolls is noted. :lol:

Tie-breakers are similar, they are not re-rolls. You're not re-rolling the same dice and discarding the result of the last; you're rolling another, which effectively adds another "decimal place" to your result.

Not so. From page 5, Initiative Phase: "Any ties are re-rolled".

If we're going to re-write the rulebook, I'd prefer to re-write page 3, which at the moment does not specify which re-rolls it covers. Some, e.g. initiative, are obviously not covered unless you're trying to take the rules too literally. Some, e.g. multiple re-rolls of twin-linked weapons, obviously are covered. (From the definition of twin-linked: "Any Attack Dice for this weapon that do not successfully strike their target may be re-rolled"; without the rule on page 3, this could mean that you keep on re-rolling until they do hit.) And some, e.g. combinations of re-rolls from different sources, are less clear.

Some combinations are specifically forbidden. You can't get re-rolls from both twin-linked and CAF because the definition of CAF specifically disallows its use with twin-linked weapons. There is no such specific ban on mixing CAF, scouting, your XP's and the opponent's XP's. Which is why I asked this in Rulesmasters rather than on the B5:ACTA forum - I was rather hoping for an official answer.

 

[Burger]

Take beams for example, if you score a hit then you re-roll it, right?

No. A re-roll is where you roll the same die again in an attempt to reverse the original result.

If you're going by the rules as written regarding initiative being a re-roll, then you have to go by rules as written for beams too.

A Beam weapon will always strike a successful hit on a target on the roll of a 4, regardless of its Hull score. Furthermore, if an Attack Dice from this weapon successful strikes a target, immediately re-roll it to attack again.

So beams are also re-rolls, therefore the worst weapons in the game.

If you agree that beams are not considered rerolls according to the rules on page 3, then it is surely possible that other mentions of the phrase are not too? You have to use common sense to decide which rolls are re-rolling the same dice (Twin-linked, CAF, Redirect Fire, XP usage) and which are re-rolling a new dice (beams, initiative tie-break).

Any rules that allow re-rolls of the same dice, apply the rule on page 3, you must accept the second result and cannot re-roll it again.

 

[AdrianH]

If you're going by the rules as written regarding initiative being a re-roll, then you have to go by rules as written for beams too.

A Beam weapon will always strike a successful hit on a target on the roll of a 4, regardless of its Hull score. Furthermore, if an Attack Dice from this weapon successfully strikes a target, immediately re-roll it to attack again.

So beams are also re-rolls, therefore the worst weapons in the game.

I repeat, from page 3:

This simply means you may ignore the first failed result that a dice rolled, and roll again.

Beam re-rolls are a result of successful rolls. Page 3 re-rolls are a result of failed rolls. Now, if you re-roll that beam die and get a miss, then you're stuck with it - both the beam rule and page 3 forbid a further re-roll. If you hit, it's not a failed result and page 3 does not apply. (Unless your definition of "failed" is different from mine. :lol

If you agree that beams are not considered rerolls according to the rules on page 3, then it is surely possible that other mentions of the phrase are not too? You have to use common sense to decide which rolls are re-rolling the same dice (Twin-linked, CAF, Redirect Fire, XP usage) and which are re-rolling a new dice (beams, initiative tie-break).

I suppose it depends on whether you regard an initiative tie as a failed result. Personally, since it has failed to determine who won initiative, I'd regard it as such.

 

[Burger]

OK if you're going by the exact lettering of the rules then you're right, it is all messed up and the game is unplayable.

Personally I play by the rules as intended, which are quite obvious in this case. Use common sense to determine if you're re-rolling the same dice (in which case apply page 3 rules), or rolling another dice (don't apply page 3).

 

[AdrianH]

OK if you're going by the exact lettering of the rules then you're right, it is all messed up and the game is unplayable.

That was my point, yes. In answer to an emphatic statement that re-rolls may never be re-rolled, I pointed out that this would break the game. Evidently some re-rolls can be re-rolled.

Personally I play by the rules as intended, which are quite obvious in this case. Use common sense to determine if you're re-rolling the same dice (in which case apply page 3 rules), or rolling another dice (don't apply page 3).

I can't always be sure what the rule writers intended, which is why I asked on Rulesmasters in the first place. However, no guesswork is needed to determine how beam re-rolls work, just a more complete quote from the beam rules:

Furthermore, if an Attack Dice from this weapon successfully strikes a target, immediately re-roll it to attack again. You may continue to re-roll every Attack Dice that scores a 4 or more, until you run out of Attack Dice.

Combine this with page 3's reference to failed results, and it is clear that page 3 does not apply to beams.