[ATCA-SF] Looking Ahead - Phaser-G

Even if the Hydrans aren't due for a while yet (though I suppose we'll see on that front eventually), should the Lyrans end up going into book two, any LDR variants of their hulls would need their phaser-Gs, too.

Personally, I'd prefer to keep the Lyrans and Hydrans grouped (and presented) together; but I'm not the one writing the cheques, so.
 
I don't see any problem with a ph-G being a 4xph-3 in ACTASF. I mean, that is what it is in SFB/FC and we all know they are nasty weapons, and extremely energy efficient.

As for comparing to the Ph-1, don't forget the Accurate +2 vs Accurate +1 does have a pretty big impact on the average damage of the weapon.

To be honest, Ph-G don't even have to make it into this game, Hydran ships could just be armed with a lot of Ph-3s!

-Tim
 
Katadder's objection is without basis, you CAN save AD for later defensive attacks. So there's no reason not to do treat the Ph-G as a phaser-3 with 4AD.

I think the trickiest Hydran weapon to model will be the Hellbore. The way it "wraps around" shields is hard to model in ACTA. Treat it like drones maybe, does lots of damage but no burn-through on a six?
 
With hellbores, the only case I'd see a need a new mechanic for is when dealing with the Klingon forward shield bonus; in that case, perhaps say the fraction of hits blocked is reduced to a quarter (since the bulk of the hit is assumed to strike against the other facings) but that this quarter reduction is always in play regardless of which arc the hellbore fires into (since at least some of the hit wraps around into the F arc). So, in essence, a Klingon ship fighting a hellbore-armed ship gives up the half-damage bonus in the F arc for a quarter-damage bonus all round when hit with that weapon.

I'd still keep it as a direct-fire weapon, though.
 
I don't have my books with me, but if memory serves, in SFB the HB does half damage to the weakest shield and the other half is split evenly to the other five. I would say the easiest way to deal with that is not allow the Klingons to use double-front shields.

I had another idea just now pop into my head, but I have to give it some thought as to whether it's too complex. Basic idea is the HB would not get as many AD as a straight conversion from FedCmdr would suggest (in relation to AD for Photons and Disruptors), but if the target's shields are already damaged, then the HB would do extra damage up to one-half the HB damage roll or equal to the number of shield boxes damaged, which ever is less.

Just throwing numbers in the air as an example, let's say the HB a is multi-hit 2d6 weapon. If the target has shield damage, roll 2d6 (say = 6 points), then take half that (3) and do that much extra (6+3=9 total) as long as it doesn't exceed pre-hit damage the shields had.


Another possible idea came to me while I was typing the above -- make the HB a strong weapons, say Multi-Hit 8. I picked 8 for two reasons: the HB is about twice as strong as a Photon torp in FedCmdr, and the second is easy math for what comes next. When the HB hits a target ship, check the target's pre-hit damage, if it's down 1/4 or more, then 2 of the 8 hits bypass shields and go internal, but the other six do not bypass shields even on a to-hit roll of "6". The Klingon double-front rule applies to the six that hit the shields, but not the two that bypassed the shields.


I'm liking the second idea better.
 
I'd personally try to avoid any math beyond simple addition and doubling/halving, maybe quarters or things. I know it doesn't sound that bad, but in the middle of a big fleet game even stopping for a few seconds to figure things out could add up.

Well, that and I'm lazy. :P

Your ideas don't seem too bad though.
 
My thoughts on HBs from a previous thread...

In the SFU, the Hellbore is more accurate than a Photon, is slow-firing, inflicts a bit more damage than a Disruptor with each hit, loses damage with increasing range, and exploits any pre-existing shield damage the target has sustained - regardless of whether the damaged shield is facing the Hellbore ship or not. It has complex and, in FC, generally disadvantageous interactions with ESGs.

I'd suggest - Range 24, Accurate +1, Devastating +1, Multihit 2, Killzone 12", Reload. It does *not* bypass shields with a roll of '6', but it does ignore the Klingon 'double effect front shields' rule. It *may* be Overloaded.
 
Something that I'm seeing is that everyone wants the Phaser-G to have more attack dice, but, just like in NA, each attack die is a single weapon firing.
Name / Range / Special
Phaser-G / 6 / Accurate +, Kill Zone 2, Multihit 2, Precise

There, a Phaser-3 that reflects the fact that it's a single weapon firing multiple shots. Is every unhappy? Yes? Good my that means it's the best fit.

Got me on Hellbores though...need to look through my uncles old SFB to figure out what to do for them.
 
hermitbob said:
Something that I'm seeing is that everyone wants the Phaser-G to have more attack dice, but, just like in NA, each attack die is a single weapon firing.
Name / Range / Special
Phaser-G / 6 / Accurate +, Kill Zone 2, Multihit 2, Precise

There, a Phaser-3 that reflects the fact that it's a single weapon firing multiple shots. Is every unhappy? Yes? Good my that means it's the best fit.

Got me on Hellbores though...need to look through my uncles old SFB to figure out what to do for them.
Yes, that would make me unhappy. You turned a four-pulse weapon into a single pulse that does two or four points of damage. That makes it an all or nothing weapons. The Ph-G in SFU has four chances to hit for low damage, not one chance to hit with a lot of damage. Completely changes the "flavor" of the weapon.
 
Plus its worth as a defensive weapon goes out the port hole, do the methane suckers have port holes?

It can (could) engage 4 Drones. making it a multihit weapon removes that and makes it nastier at close range but significantly reduces the Drone (and later on the fighter) defence of the Methane suckers.
 
Nomad said:
In the SFU, the Hellbore is more accurate than a Photon, is slow-firing, inflicts a bit more damage than a Disruptor with each hit, loses damage with increasing range, and exploits any pre-existing shield damage the target has sustained - regardless of whether the damaged shield is facing the Hellbore ship or not. It has complex and, in FC, generally disadvantageous interactions with ESGs.

I'd suggest - Range 24, Accurate +1, Devastating +1, Multihit 2, Killzone 12", Reload. It does *not* bypass shields with a roll of '6', but it does ignore the Klingon 'double effect front shields' rule. It *may* be Overloaded.
In FedCmdr, the Photon does 8 points of damage, whereas the HB does 20 at point-blank down to 10 at medimum range. Ergo, I would say the HB needs to be a Multi-Hit 4 weapon with a Kill-Zone (not sure what range).

Also, I think HB needs its own topic.
 
Captain Jonah said:
Plus its worth as a defensive weapon goes out the port hole, do the methane suckers have port holes?

It can (could) engage 4 Drones. making it a multihit weapon removes that and makes it nastier at close range but significantly reduces the Drone (and later on the fighter) defence of the Methane suckers.

Exactly....Most empires use this weapon as a defensive weapon against drones. See the thread on Drone Spamming, Phaser-G could equalize the playing field. This weapon needs a multi target engagement capability (even is that is rulled just against seeking weapons). But I have to agree each weapon fires once per turn so choose your target carefully (all 4 AD are fired when the target is declared). 8)

If I were to deploy a Federation Fleet against the Kzinti, I would employ a few fire power ships, and then fill in with lots of escorts with Phaser-G (glad I'm not playing in tournaments yet, since Phaser-G doesn't formally exist yet. :shock:

Also, IMHO removing the ACC +1 doesn't take away the knife fighting ability of these ships. Get within 6" on a two weapon bank you can still potentially do 8 points (agreed, more likely on average to do 4 points). :twisted: I can see arguments for leaving the ACC +1 and removing it.
 
Lincolnlog said:
Captain Jonah said:
Plus its worth as a defensive weapon goes out the port hole, do the methane suckers have port holes?

It can (could) engage 4 Drones. making it a multihit weapon removes that and makes it nastier at close range but significantly reduces the Drone (and later on the fighter) defence of the Methane suckers.

Exactly....Most empires use this weapon as a defensive weapon against drones. See the thread on Drone Spamming, Phaser-G could equalize the playing field. This weapon needs a multi target engagement capability (even is that is rulled just against seeking weapons). But I have to agree each weapon fires once per turn so choose your target carefully (all 4 AD are fired when the target is declared). 8)

If I were to deploy a Federation Fleet against the Kzinti, I would employ a few fire power ships, and then fill in with lots of escorts with Phaser-G (glad I'm not playing in tournaments yet, since Phaser-G doesn't formally exist yet. :shock:

Also, IMHO removing the ACC +1 doesn't take away the knife fighting ability of these ships. Get within 6" on a two weapon bank you can still potentially do 8 points (agreed, more likely on average to do 4 points). :twisted: I can see arguments for leaving the ACC +1 and removing it.
I would like to point out that multihit 2 is better than 2 AD of no multihit, as every successful HIT will remove 1AD of drones, so 1 success = 2 dead drones. A phaser-G should be good against drones but better on fighters at knife range. And if you really aren't happy how about this:
Phaser-G / 6 / Accurate +1, Multihit d6, Precise
Is that more in line with a rapid fire Phaser rather than just 4 Phaser-3's duct-taped together? Remember a single weapon (with the exception of Plasma) only has 1AD, it's when you start stacking weapons together that they get multiple AD.
 
That's just it though, a Ph-G IS basically 4 Ph-3 duct taped together...

I took "each successful hit" to mean "each AD which rolls high enough to hit" not "each hit scored".

I really wish ACTA used different terminology, nearly every game from D&D onwards distinguishes whether or not you "hit" and "damage points" from each other. I find the idea that a weapon can hit once and score multiple hits each time it hits to be very confusing. That's not to mention drones, which hit automatically but you roll a die to see how many times it automatically hit, no doubt flying back and forth through the target like the magic bullet that killed Kennedy.
 
I think the idea behind the "to hit" roll is have you actually hit the ship?
and then the Attack table shows if you have you actually damaged the ship with your weapon.

I see the drones dice roll as how close/effective the explosion is - how much of the ship is caught in the blast etc - seems to make sense?

Personally I prefered Double Damage, etc weapons :wink: rather than multi-hit - although the effects are pretty much the same.....
 
Iron Domokun said:
That's just it though, a Ph-G IS basically 4 Ph-3 duct taped together...

I took "each successful hit" to mean "each AD which rolls high enough to hit" not "each hit scored".

I really wish ACTA used different terminology, nearly every game from D&D onwards distinguishes whether or not you "hit" and "damage points" from each other. I find the idea that a weapon can hit once and score multiple hits each time it hits to be very confusing. That's not to mention drones, which hit automatically but you roll a die to see how many times it automatically hit, no doubt flying back and forth through the target like the magic bullet that killed Kennedy.
You are confusing yourself. Each Attack Die represents one weapon firing. Each weapon may or may not be able to score multiple hits. A burst from a Disruptor or a beam from a Phaser (when from close range) may strike multiple locations on a ship, hence multihit...of course Photon Torps and Plasma and drones are all explosions and likely to cause collateral damage to a ship, hence multihit...Each HIT then rolls for damage IF it leaked or if shields are down...
 
As a point though the Killzone ability of phasers to do two "hits" of damage is not a factor when used for defensive fire. A Phaser-1 stops 1AD of incoming. A phaser 3 stops 1AD of incoming.

A multihit phaser still stops 1 hit of incoming.

For it to be able to engage 4 drones it needs to fire 4 times. It is in all ways a phaser-3 that can be fired 4 times a turn. No fancy rules needed, no new weapon types or stat lines. It either fires 4 shots in a knife fight attack phase or it can fire up to 4 times in defensive fire. Yes it can miss 4 times, it always could.
 
Each Attack Die represents one weapon firing. Each weapon may or may not be able to score multiple hits.

"Weapons, overload and fire all four photon torpedoes!"
"Aye, Captain!" [SFX: ptu-ptu-ptu-ptu-boom]
"Sensors, how many hits?"
"Out of four weapons fired, twenty-seven of them hit."
:lol:

Seriously, though: I fire a weapon at a target, I roll a die to see whether or not the weapon hits the target. How much DAMAGE is inflicted (if any)? Conflating the concepts of hitting/missing and scoring damage or not is confusing.
 
Captain Jonah said:
As a point though the Killzone ability of phasers to do two "hits" of damage is not a factor when used for defensive fire. A Phaser-1 stops 1AD of incoming. A phaser 3 stops 1AD of incoming.

A multihit phaser still stops 1 hit of incoming.

For it to be able to engage 4 drones it needs to fire 4 times. It is in all ways a phaser-3 that can be fired 4 times a turn. No fancy rules needed, no new weapon types or stat lines. It either fires 4 shots in a knife fight attack phase or it can fire up to 4 times in defensive fire. Yes it can miss 4 times, it always could.
You're right, most Phaser's only have Multihit when in Kill Zone, but not all. Phaser-4'a are specifically: Accurate +2, Kill Zone 10, Multihit 2, Precise. There is precedent for a Phaser to have both Kill Zone and Multihit.

@Iron Domokun,
Your example is poor. Four Overloaded Photon Torpedoes are unable to score 27 hits, it would be 0,4,8,12, or 16 out of the Kill Zone 6, or double that with in.
"Weapons, overload and fire all four photon torpedoes!"
"Aye, Captain!" [SFX: ptu-ptu-ptu-ptu-boom]
"Sensors, how many hits?"
"Out of four weapons fired, two hit dropping the target's shield and scoring heavy damage!"

It's kinda like Warhammer. I shoot, I miss, I get a re-roll, I hit. Do I wound? No, but I get another re-roll. Does your guy save? Does he re-roll his save? Does he get a back-up save? Does he re-roll his back-up save? Clear as day....
 
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