Armour Vs Gravity

[Lord High Munchkin]

Just a question.

Is there (or has anyone ever devised) a table/formula for what level of armour protection is required to overcome various levels gravity? For example: Armour 10 is proof against 8 gs.

Obviously this is really only going to apply to sealed armours (or at low levels, exo-skeletal types), but it's more the rating and concept I'm interested in.

 

[far-trader]

Do you mean pressure? As in Atmospheres of pressure for submerged depth and gas giant diving? Crush depth for example. I don't get the reference of armour to gravity as protection :? If that's what you're after can you explain it a little more?

 

[rust]

Is there (or has anyone ever devised) a table/formula for what level of armour protection is required to overcome various levels gravity? For example: Armour 10 is proof against 8 gs.

As I understand it, even a sealed armour would not protect against high
gravity, because there is no way to seal the armour against gravity - for
example the blood would still be drawn from the head to the legs, causing
a blackout, and so on.

A G-Suit, which is no armour, would help against the consequences of a
somewhat higher surface gravity, but probably not for any extended pe-
riod of time. Beyond that, one would need armour with an integrated con-
tragrav.

As for pressure, there are no useful data in the Mongoose Traveller mate-
rial, and some of the very few statements made are highly implausible.
For my water world settings I base the crush depth of armour on the sub-
stance used for the armour, with superdense as the best protection, but
this is difficult to use for body armour, because it is not alway clear what
it is made of.

GURPS Vehicles has a formula to calculate crush depth based upon the
armour value, but it requires the conversion of Mongoose Traveller stats
to GURPS stats.

 

[rinku]

I'd treat any environment suit (vacc suit, battledress) as equivalent to a g-suit such as fighter pilots wear to help reduce the effects of peak Gs, but yeah, it won't help that much against constant Gs.

You'd need contragrav of some sort. I'd think that a Grav Belt would do the trick, though you could have something cheaper that just counteracts part of the local field. It could be built into some kind of armour, I guess.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I'm thinking of hostile environments on gas giants, but also underwater (well methane).

So a reasonably small vehicle made of say Superdense, which is also strengthened by being Very Ruggedised (nasty "word"), has Advanced Sealing, and with Life Support, Hostile Environment should do it? Obviously hardening all electronics too would be a good idea as well.

If it was a grav vehicle, and thus able to alter it's gravity, I can't see a reason why it shouldn't survive say 25 gs (for gas giants), or deep down in oceans.

Can anyone see any issues with this level of protection?

 

[DFW]

If it was a grav vehicle, and thus able to alter it's gravity, I can't see a reason why it shouldn't survive say 25 gs (for gas giants),

Jupiter has a "surface gravity of only ~2.5 Gs

 

[rust]

So a reasonably small vehicle made of say Superdense, which is also strengthened by being Very Ruggedised (nasty "word"), has Advanced Sealing, and with Life Support, Hostile Environment should do it?

Provided the vehicle has a somewhat pressure-resistant shape (a sphere
or something close to it), I allow such vehicles down to 10,000 meters be-
low the ocean surface - but they might well be able to go even further, my
settings just do not have deeper oceans.

If it was a grav vehicle, and thus able to alter it's gravity, I can't see a reason why it shouldn't survive say 25 gs (for gas giants), or deep down in oceans.

It seems to me that you could be confusing gravity and pressure. Even if
a contragrav is used to counter the gravity, the pressure would not neces-
sarily be countered, too, I suspect - the interior gravity of the ship and its
weight would be altered, but not the weight of the water above the vehicle.

 

[CosmicGamer]

An vehicle specifically designed for it would be more capable but in some cases I would think a HE Vacc Suit would be sufficient. The book isn't specific as to the pressure it can handle but it does say "high pressure environments like undersea trenches". All you need to add is some form of locomotion. Perhaps a simple grav belt designed for use underwater.

Drat, now I got this song running through my head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xufxKCC1NJ8

 

[dreamingbadger]

I'm thinking of hostile environments on gas giants, but also underwater (well methane).

So a reasonably small vehicle made of say Superdense, which is also strengthened by being Very Ruggedised (nasty "word"), has Advanced Sealing, and with Life Support, Hostile Environment should do it? Obviously hardening all electronics too would be a good idea as well.

If it was a grav vehicle, and thus able to alter it's gravity, I can't see a reason why it shouldn't survive say 25 gs (for gas giants), or deep down in oceans.

Can anyone see any issues with this level of protection?

are you confusing/combining atmospheres of pressure with gravities?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Well, OK (and bear in mind I'm not a scientist), given that roughly pressure at the bottom of the ocean is in the region of 1,000 bar, what would be the armour protection needed to withstand that?

Someone somewhere on this list said that Battledress could handle this (i.e. if sealed, at 18 pts. of armour), is that reasonable?

What would be the necessary level of armour for a vehicle (if not covered by Very Rugged, Advanced Sealing, and degrees of Life Support) to enable one to sit at the bottom of a methane sea, or cruise a gas giant.

Roughly.

 

[rust]

Well, OK (and bear in mind I'm not a scientist), given that roughly pressure at the bottom of the ocean is in the region of 1,000 bar, what would be the armour protection needed to withstand that?

It depends on the shape of the armoured object, the armour material and
the thickness of the armour. A typical deep sea research submarine built
for a safe depth of 4,500 meters has a titanium alloy hull of about 50 mm.
As for crystaliron or superdense, you can choose any values you consi-
der plausible or useful, there are no real world data.

Someone somewhere on this list said that Battledress could handle this (i.e. if sealed, at 18 pts. of armour), is that reasonable?

Not really. While the material itself could probably withstand the pressure,
there is no known way for the construction of movable joints for such con-
ditions. Modern hardsuits can be used safely up to a depth of about 3,000
meters, beyond that the problems become so great that one person sub-
marines with manipulators are the much better choice.

What would be the necessary level of armour for a vehicle (if not covered by Very Rugged, Advanced Sealing, and degrees of Life Support) to enable one to sit at the bottom of a methane sea, or cruise a gas giant.
Roughly.

I guess that one would be on the safe side with 50 cm of titanium alloy,
but I have no idea how that translates into Traveller stats.

 

[SSWarlock]

Keep in mind that pressure resistance is also provided by a ship's internal structure and hull shape, in addition to its armor. So the measure of a ship's total pressure resistance should account for not just armor but also the number of Structure points and Hull points.

 

[CosmicGamer]

While the material itself could probably withstand the pressure, there is no known way for the construction of movable joints for such con-ditions. Modern hardsuits can be used safely up to a depth of about 3,000 meters, beyond that the problems become so great that one person sub-marines with manipulators are the much better choice.

This does not indicate it isn't possible. How about at higher tech levels?

 

[rust]

This does not indicate it isn't possible. How about at higher tech levels?

It may of course become possible, but currently there is no known way to
do it, at least not safely. At a high pressure even the tiniest leak would be
lethal, and the joints are the weakest part of any hardsuit, so the current
research goes towards one person subs or even remotely controlled AUVs,
not towards suits, because even the best suits would be more dangerous.

 

[dreamingbadger]

not a direct answer but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_depth

 

[far-trader]

Keep in mind that pressure resistance is also provided by a ship's internal structure and hull shape, in addition to its armor. So the measure of a ship's total pressure resistance should account for not just armor but also the number of Structure points and Hull points.

Quite, but a simpler methodology is probably better for the game while still being in the ballpark.

Armour seems as good a measure as any though I'd suggest it begin with a base value already factored in. Even unarmoured ships are going to be able to take some pressure.

And I'd simply put upper limits on some designs like hard suits. And probably make the armour factor for depth ratings tied to the base design. So a ship may get more depth per armour factor than a vehicle which may itself get more than a hard suit. So for the same armour factor the ship can stand more pressure than the vehicle which can stand more pressure than the hard suit.

The issue has been addressed in previous versions but I don't have the numbers handy or time to hunt them up at the moment. Maybe someone else will. Or I'll get back to it if and as I can.

 

[TC]

If you approach this from the Vehicles book angle: going with SD for the frame and armour, extra rugged, yadda yadda, your there for the vehicle if you add CG.

For Suits, the Hazardous Enviroment suits cover some real extremes, other wise, come sit over here with me and wait impatiently for the Power Armour book