Armour penalty

[RosenMcStern]

Also remember that a +1 quality Chainmail only costs 4000-5000 silver (much less than standard plate) and it yelds the same protection as a plate for a -35% penalty. The rules specifically state that a Greater item is so common as to be llikely to be found already-made in shops.

I think adventurers will tend to wear superior specimens of lesser armors instead of the heaviest possible standard ones, once they level up. Note that even though the price is outrageous, it is possible to produce nonmagical armors that are the equivalent of RQ3 ones: 8pt plate, 7pt. chain, 5pt. ringmail and so on. A 5pt. ringmail costs 10250, headgear excluded, and is only -18% to skill, i.e. half the penalty of an equivalent chainmail. And although not available as a "pret-a-porter", it is definitely not rare.

In any case, I agree with Rurik that penalties should be lowered instead of dropped altogether.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Correct. Outside of fatigue and some (noncombat) skills, the armor penalty makes absolutely no sense if you want realism. The people of past ages weren't dumb enough to wear around armor that hampered their ability to actually fight. It also doesn't hamper most other athletic skills to any appreciable degree: swim (and to a lesser extent climb) being obvious examples.

They didn't. Plate armor is something you only saw on knights on a horse, for duelling purposes. Even a full ringmail was uncommon. Among the viking, those with the best armor wore a ringmail hauberk, a helmet and leather. Cuirbouilly was actually a very common type of armor worn by soldiers, usually painted. The penalties are too high for play though, and should be lowered, or should maybe give a penalty in some other way.

EDIT: Quoted the worng guy!

(and of course, the bypass any armor rule has to go)

 

[RosenMcStern]

They didn't. Plate armor is something you only saw on knights on a horse, for duelling purposes. Even a full ringmail was uncommon. Among the viking, those with the best armor wore a ringmail hauberk, a helmet and leather. Cuirbouilly was actually a very common type of armor worn by soldiers, usually painted. The penalties are too high for play though, and should be lowered, or should maybe give a penalty in some other way.

Hmm. I agree that plate armor became common among foot soldiers in the renaissance, and only for vitals perhaps. And maybe ringmail was the most common armor for the Normans at Hastings (the Bayeux tapestry seems to confirm this), but that was the 11th century. Starting with the 12th-13th century chainmail and open helm was the standard equipment of professional soldiers. This is clearly shown in pictures drawn in that period, that are much more accurate in depicting battle gear than one would expect, given that they were drawn by monks.

Certainly thughs and lesser nobles' bodyguards, like PCs should start their adventures as, wore mainly leather, but PCs will easily find a reason to pick a fight with regular soldiers and "justly" claim theire armor as booty :roll:

 

[Adept]

Their opponent can completely ignore the plate armour, and any magical defences they may have, for only a 40% penalty on their attack chance (precise attack) but of course can still defend at full chance.

The prefered solution round here seems to be to only apply the armour penalty to fatigue rolls.

The option to ignore armour at a -40 penalty just doesn't work. I'd lose that entirely, if I was running the game. Parhaps a good alternative would be that a critical either does full damage, or ignores armour. Player's choise. That would mean that against a heavily armoured opponent, you could try to find a weak spot in his armour, but you could alternatively just try to hit him as hard as you can.

 

[Adept]

They didn't. Plate armor is something you only saw on knights on a horse, for duelling purposes. Even a full ringmail was uncommon. Among the viking, those with the best armor wore a ringmail hauberk, a helmet and leather. Cuirbouilly was actually a very common type of armor worn by soldiers, usually painted. The penalties are too high for play though, and should be lowered, or should maybe give a penalty in some other way.

(and of course, the bypass any armor rule has to go)

Again with the misinterpreted tapestry. *sigh*

There is no such thing as ringmail! As for footmen not fighting in platemail, look up the german landsknecht

http://www.varmouries.com/lan_02.html

They were infantry who fought in full plate harness.

Parhaps I've spent too much time in academic circles, but it really bugs me when people use such "this is how it was!" tone, while they don't really know what they are talking about. Sorry if this sounds tetchy, I've got two exams tomorrow and a lot of studying still to do.

 

[Rurik]

Correct. Outside of fatigue and some (noncombat) skills, the armor penalty makes absolutely no sense if you want realism. The people of past ages weren't dumb enough to wear around armor that hampered their ability to actually fight. It also doesn't hamper most other athletic skills to any appreciable degree: swim (and to a lesser extent climb) being obvious examples.

They didn't. Plate armor is something you only saw on knights on a horse, for duelling purposes. Even a full ringmail was uncommon. Among the viking, those with the best armor wore a ringmail hauberk, a helmet and leather. Cuirbouilly was actually a very common type of armor worn by soldiers, usually painted. The penalties are too high for play though, and should be lowered, or should maybe give a penalty in some other way.

(and of course, the bypass any armor rule has to go)

Triff, you missed your nested quote roll. That quote is actually RMS's.

The plate you are describing is a full suit of plate, where in RQ (or Glorantha anyway) plate has always been more like the Greek style hoplite armor (breastplate, greaves, vambraces). The MRQ crafting rules can simulate full plate (sort of) by creating plate with Bulwark (-80% to precise attacks to bypass armour) - which would be plate that covers the weak spots (at no additional ENC though :? ).

 

[RosenMcStern]

There is no such thing as ringmail!. As for footmen not fighting in platemail, look up the german landsknecht

All pictures of fighters (not only the tapestry) drawn in the 900-1100 AD period show some sort of armor that is not chainmail, and it does look like some sort of scale/ringmail/bezainted/whatever. Pictures drawn 200 years later clearly show chainmail or the like.

And yes, I do know what a German Landsknecht was and what sort of armor he used to wear. In fact they did a big mess here where I live :? , and peasants are still scared.

But that is a renaissance soldier, i.e. 16th century or later. The breastplate was worn because he was expected to encounter black powder weapons, not broadswords. Mediaeval foot soldiers did not wear that stuff.

 

[Rurik]

The option to ignore armour at a -40 penalty just doesn't work. I'd lose that entirely, if I was running the game. Parhaps a good alternative would be that a critical either does full damage, or ignores armour. Player's choise. That would mean that against a heavily armoured opponent, you could try to find a weak spot in his armour, but you could alternatively just try to hit him as hard as you can.

I hated it at first but think it might work ok in practice. You can parry - (walk quietly and carry a big shield is my new credo). You can create superior armor that is -80% to precise attacks as well using the crafting rules (and I imagine that is a very popular option for big bad rich and powerful types - players be warned).

Things that happened as a by product of combat in RQ2/3 such as damage to weapons and ignoring armor only happen as a result of precise attacks now. I don't find this as realistic as before, but as I've said before, if you choose to run MRQ over RQ 2/3 you are willingly sacrificing some realism in your rules mechanics.

 

[Rurik]

All pictures of fighters (not only the tapestry) drawn in the 900-1100 AD period show some sort of armor that is not chainmail, and it does look like some sort of scale/ringmail/bezainted/whatever. Pictures drawn 200 years later clearly show chainmail or the like.

I would say the art evolved, not the armor. There is no archaeological (or textual) evidence any sort of ring mail of the type common in RPG's was used in medieval Europe. Mail, on the other hand, can be found that predates 900 AD by centuries.

There have been rings sewn to backing or into linen that have been found, but these types of armor were not predominent in Europe ant any period.

 

[Trifletraxor]

There is no such thing as ringmail!

The Vikings used a hauberk they called "Ringbrynje" which directly translates to Ringmail. But upon closer inspection it turns out that "Ringbrynje" is the same as chainmail, not RQ ringmail.

I'll give you that point, but I still believe full plate was uncommon among medieval foot soldiers. And I think, even though the german landsknecht was well protected, the plate probably restricted his agility and fighting skills a bit (in addition to the heavy fatigue).

SGL.

 

[RMS]

I would say the art evolved, not the armor. There is no archaeological (or textual) evidence any sort of ring mail of the type common in RPG's was used in medieval Europe. Mail, on the other hand, can be found that predates 900 AD by centuries.

In fact, the Romans used mail hauberks (didn't call them that of course!) at times.

There have been rings sewn to backing or into linen that have been found, but these types of armor were not predominent in Europe ant any period.

I can think of Bronze and (early) Iron Age examples of this type of armor, but it is long outdated by anything post-Roman in Europe.

 

[Rurik]

Plate was uncommon among footsoldiers because of it's cost. Knights fought on foot just fine if they lost their mount or in defense of a castle, etc.

Many SCA'ers wear plate, and all battles are on foot.

And lastly, again, Gloranthan plate is not typically the late middle ages full suits of plate, it is more like hoplite armor.

 

[RMS]

I'll give you that point, but I still believe full plate was uncommon among medieval foot soldiers. And I think, even though the german landsknecht was well protected, the plate probably restricted his agility and fighting skills a bit (in addition to the heavy fatigue).

SGL.

It was uncommon, but not because it wasn't effective or useable. It was uncommon because it was too expensive for foot soldiers in most cases. As armor became more complex, costs when up exponentially, and only the richest people could afford the best: the same people who could afford the best horses and to spend all of their time training for war. You've got the relationship backwords here, as I read it. Foot soldiers don't skip plate because it's hard to use. They skip plate because in most cases they can't afford it. The very fact that they're a foot soldier is also the reason that they don't have the funds to buy suits of full plate armor.

The armor restricts perception and fatigue to a large degree. It won't affect fighting skills to any appreciable degree. More extreme agility skills (jumping, climbing, etc.) will be affected, but not by the extreme amount that many people seem to believe. Remember that the armor is custom made and fitted, not picked up off the last kill, like in an RPG. It's designed to move with the wearer and fit them exactly, and is specifically designed to allow them freedom of movement in combat.

All of this is a bit beside the point though since RQ plate armor is actually Greek hoplite armor with no articulated joints, etc. It's a breast plate, greeves, etc. and a Corinthian (or similar) helm. It won't affect range of movement at all. It weighs a bit, but can still be marched in for hours a day with little trouble.

 

[Adept]

There is no such thing as ringmail!. As for footmen not fighting in platemail, look up the german landsknecht

All pictures of fighters (not only the tapestry) drawn in the 900-1100 AD period show some sort of armor that is not chainmail, and it does look like some sort of scale/ringmail/bezainted/whatever. Pictures drawn 200 years later clearly show chainmail or the like.

And yes, I do know what a German Landsknecht was and what sort of armor he used to wear. In fact they did a big mess here where I live :? , and peasants are still scared.

But that is a renaissance soldier, i.e. 16th century or later. The breastplate was worn because he was expected to encounter black powder weapons, not broadswords. Mediaeval foot soldiers did not wear that stuff.

Dismounted knights were a righteous terror in a fight. Infantry didn't wear plate harness because of the cost, not because it wasn't effective. Pikemen in heavy armour = Alexander's Sarissa phalanx. The front rank wore the best armour in existance.

And the "it does look like" thing about the tapestry is just how this tragedy (ringmail, bezainted armour) got started. A few guys just made stuff up on the basis of what the tapestry looked like to them. What they vere looking at was chainmail, drawn lazily I'ts shameful that D&D (and RQ) have spread that nonesense everywhere. Ask a real archeologist (a modern one) if you don't believe me.

As for the reneissance thing, the RQ weapon tables have rapiers, don't they? I'm not talking about Glorantha here, but the generic RQ fantasy.

 

[Vadrus]

All of this is a bit beside the point though since RQ plate armor is actually Greek hoplite armor with no articulated joints, etc. It's a breast plate, greeves, etc. and a Corinthian (or similar) helm. It won't affect range of movement at all. It weighs a bit, but can still be marched in for hours a day with little trouble.

Actually that is the description of Plate from RQ2 and 3, however MRQ is a generic system and not Glorantha specific so the plate in question has to cover all settings the rules can be used for and that includes late medieval and renaissance settings.


Vadrus

 

[Trifletraxor]

It was uncommon, but not because it wasn't effective or useable. It was uncommon because it was too expensive for foot soldiers in most cases. As armor became more complex, costs when up exponentially, and only the richest people could afford the best: the same people who could afford the best horses and to spend all of their time training for war. You've got the relationship backwords here, as I read it. Foot soldiers don't skip plate because it's hard to use. They skip plate because in most cases they can't afford it. The very fact that they're a foot soldier is also the reason that they don't have the funds to buy suits of full plate armor.

The armor restricts perception and fatigue to a large degree. It won't affect fighting skills to any appreciable degree. More extreme agility skills (jumping, climbing, etc.) will be affected, but not by the extreme amount that many people seem to believe. Remember that the armor is custom made and fitted, not picked up off the last kill, like in an RPG. It's designed to move with the wearer and fit them exactly, and is specifically designed to allow them freedom of movement in combat.

All of this is a bit beside the point though since RQ plate armor is actually Greek hoplite armor with no articulated joints, etc. It's a breast plate, greeves, etc. and a Corinthian (or similar) helm. It won't affect range of movement at all. It weighs a bit, but can still be marched in for hours a day with little trouble.

I bow down to your superior knowledge. Out goes the skill penalty. Hmm... must work more with the fatigue rules instead then. Must limit my players! Or they'll all be strutting around in full chain+plate!
:?
SGL.

 

[Adept]

I bow down to your superior knowledge. Out goes the skill penalty. Hmm... must work more with the fatigue rules instead then. Must limit my players! Or they'll all be strutting around in full chain+plate!
:?
SGL.

As somebody who practises historical european swordplay (italian longsword* style, from 1300 - 1400), I'd keep the skill penalty.

Armour restricts your movement, and combat skill isn't about your ability to stand still and hit your target with a blade. It's about movement and timing, and heavy armour does restrict your options.

In the systems I use, I have half the armour penalty to the actual fighting skill (like swordplay) and the full penalty to things like dodging, climbing and jumping.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

As for the reneissance thing, the RQ weapon tables have rapiers, don't they? I'm not talking about Glorantha here, but the generic RQ fantasy.

Not the overlong, elaborate weapon of the Renaissance. A basic cut-and-thrust weapon lighter than a Broadsword.

 

[Trifletraxor]

As somebody who practises historical european swordplay (italian longsword* style, from 1300 - 1400), I'd keep the skill penalty.

Armour restricts your movement, and combat skill isn't about your ability to stand still and hit your target with a blade. It's about movement and timing, and heavy armour does restrict your options.

In the systems I use, I have half the armour penalty to the actual fighting skill (like swordplay) and the full penalty to things like dodging, climbing and jumping.

I've never worn much armor, but that sounds resonable. I'll do it your way!

*my feeble bugbrain flicker between opinions*

SGL.

 

[Adept]

As for the reneissance thing, the RQ weapon tables have rapiers, don't they? I'm not talking about Glorantha here, but the generic RQ fantasy.

Not the overlong, elaborate weapon of the Renaissance. A basic cut-and-thrust weapon lighter than a Broadsword.

That didn't mean very much then, and it still doesn't. The picture sure looked like a rapier (or a small-sword). Furthermore mongoose is trying to market their RQ as a general fantasy game-engine. You need to be able to do rapiers, black-powder weapons and footmans plate for that.