Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Perkanis83]

Hey we just fought a short war (the fourth frontier war) with the TL14 Zhodani, our TL15 kit managed to hold them at bay, what should we do when they come back?

Re-equip to TL12 standards that will fool them.

I can see this happening as Star General Melchett is in charge... with duke Percy of Percy in charge of procurement

Yup instead of the correct, sensible, and historic decision to mass produce TL 15 gear to make sure every regiment down to the cook is decked out in full TL 15 battle rattle.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I for one welcome our new Zhodani overlords - can I get a free psi test?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I for one welcome our new Zhodani overlords - can I get a free psi test?

What makes you think that has not already been done?

 

[Sigtrygg]

My Hiver friend told me...

 

[collins355]

I'm about to launch into commentary on The Fifth Frontier War: The ICS Papers. Although it is closely related to this book, I think I'll create a new thread.

 

[actionman]

IF the Emperor decides to do it, it happens. What the Emperor decides to do it likely vastly different than what the bureaucrats want to happen.

I work in government. I know what we should be doing. I know what many people think we should be doing. Sometimes that actually is the same thing. However those in the chain up above have different ideas. Different priorities, etc.

I'm aware.

Reading through the later part of this thread is very much well intentioned "this is the logical thing that should be happening", "there are virtually unlimited resources, why not do it", "there have been centuries to make better plans", etc.

And yes all that is easily overcome by one or two people ignoring what they are being told to do and doing what they know is the better option.....

In liberal democracies, bureaucrats have a well-established body of law and regulations to protect them from the consequences of doing this.

But, the Imperium has its own set of circumstances. It's a government of men not laws, and Imperial bureaucrats, officials, and even nobles keep their careers, their fortunes, and their lives at the pleasure of the Emperor. There are no legal protections. There is no limit to what the Emperor or a representative acting in his name can do to an offending official, his family, and his associates. The cost of bureaucratic obstruction could be great indeed. It would be a very high stakes game.

Bureaucrats, officials, and nobles responsible for executing the Emperor's will at a variety of levels could of course ignore or frustrate those directives and implement other agendas for reasons of their own. The Traveller Adventure mentions this directly. Fraud, corruption, and agenda-seeking would no doubt be rife. The web of relationships among the nobility could make enforcement exceedingly complicated, until a noble or Imperial representative (could be one and the same) of sufficient rank and authority takes decisive action.

But, in the case of a major military buildup, obstructing the force readiness plan agreed upon by Imperial High Command and authorized by the Emperor could easily be construed as treason. It wouldn't just not happen because bureaucrats didn't want it. Obstructionists would eventually be identified and dealt with.



Reviewed the Traveller wiki just now. The Imperial Bureaucracy is led at multiple levels by the different types of nobles. A noble obstructing Imperial decrees would set himself and his family up to lose everything for generations. A non-noble bureaucrat obstructing for whatever reason probably would not survive.

Anyway, the point to which I was responding was the book's statements (as critiqued by @Sigtrygg ) that the challenges of cost and logistics would too great for the Imperial Army to mobilize and deploy millions of TL15 troops. The US had16 million men in uniform in 1945. The UK had 4.7 million men in uniform in 1944. Would the Imperium at TL15 with the resources of 10,000 worlds not be able to do better?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Anyway, the point to which I was responding was the book's statements (as critiqued by @Sigtrygg ) that the challenges of cost and logistics would too great for the Imperial Army to mobilize and deploy millions of TL15 troops. The US had16 million men in uniform in 1945. The UK had 4.7 million men in uniform in 1944. Would the Imperium at TL15 with the resources of 10,000 worlds not be able to do better?

Indeed.

 

[Condottiere]

The Solomani could institute Lend Lease to help them out.

 

[Anstett]

From a different thread that I thought would fit here also.

Post in thread 'Planet Mongoose is Here!'

Tuesday at 4:14 PM

Lifelong military historian here. I may have mentioned this before...

If there was one statement that sums up the procurement process that equips the military of any industrialized society on Earth, it's 'nobody ever gets all of what it wants'. Seriously, somebody ought to engrave that on a monument at the Quartermaster Branch's headquarters. Even the Israelis, who are very attentive to the needs of their soldiery comparatively speaking, acknowledge this rule as a basic fact of life....
The entire rule works out like this:
"You can some, if not most, of what you want in the very near...

• ottarrus

• 

 

[tomfreshwater]

In the spirit of playing devils advocate about a largely irrelevant subject, as ultimately in YTU you do whatever you feel is best. By the resources available in CT, Battledress has only a max ruled TL of 14, there is not TL15 version. Also book 4 (merc) says troops are equipped with FGMP-14. No one uses the FGMP-15 as the cost is so much greater. As the stats the same. So BD imperial infantry in CT are still equipped a TL below imperial max. Also in FFW game, the divisions and brigades (for both Imps and Zhos) have a much greater frequency of one below max TL. So I would suggest that actually all those armies and corps if split down, would not consist of all TL-15 (or TL-14 if Zhos) divisions and brigades. But rather they are an average of the provided combat values. So whilst there is an average of TL-15 there will still be a 30-40% TL-14 at Division level.
Other than using ACRs which are unable to penetrate Zho CA, which I agree is silly (but they could use (AP rounds set of the CSC rules) what does it matter if the majority of your logistics and infantry are lower TL (assuming you can’t have everyone in, for whatever reason, BD and FGMPs). You want the real sharp end of your assets to be TL-15/14. Your tanks, assault troops, speeders, MA artillery etc. It’s in these areas where the battles are really won or lost. Infantry are just there to slow everything down and stop wars descending into everything being flattened by extremely potent firepower. So perhaps FFW game can be thought of as the TL that best reflects where the average amount of combat values (CV) came from. In a 20 CV division I would imagine 6 or 7 of that would come from the meson batteries alone. Perhaps 5 from the infantry and the rest from armoured assets and speeders or more traditional artillery. But this is the great problem with FFW the ground combat doesn’t really work. I made my own version in lockdown that gave each unit a Firepower and a separate damage absorption value and removed TL completely. Infantry would lose firepower a lot more slowly whilst if armour could be damaged it would start to loose effectiveness much more quickly. Trying to reflect the ability for infantry to stick out a fight despite a loss of command and organisation. It was much more satisfactory. It all fell apart when I tried to add logistical requirements in and I started to need excel to keep track of everything. But the idea I had was the imperials main asset was they needed a lot less logistical support as they were able to make a lot more on the battlefield whilst the zho relied on a much larger tail.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the spirit of playing devils advocate about a largely irrelevant subject, as ultimately in YTU you do whatever you feel is best. By the resources available in CT, Battledress has only a max ruled TL of 14, there is not TL15 version.

There is TL15 electronics and weapons systems, etc. to fit to it though.

Also book 4 (merc) says troops are equipped with FGMP-14. No one uses the FGMP-15 as the cost is so much greater.

They would use an FGMP14 manufactured at TL15, much like TL6 assault rifles are now manufactured at TL7 with TL7 materials.

As the stats the same. So BD imperial infantry in CT are still equipped a TL below imperial max.

Only the armour, and even that will be TL15 manufacturing prcocesses rather than TL14 so if you use LBB:4 rules it is reduced in price by 10%, he electronics, point defence etc will be TL15.

Also in FFW game, the divisions and brigades (for both Imps and Zhos) have a much greater frequency of one below max TL.

I posted the numbers, there are very few TL14 regular Imperial units, I can go back and repost the numbers.

There are 7 TL15 5c field army regular units, only 1 TL14 5c field army, then there are 4 TL15 1c corps, and 2 TL14 1c corps, 5 TL15 20 divisions, 3 TL14 20 divisions, 4 TL15 10 brigades, 2 TL15 5 regiments, and 2 TL14 5 regiments.

Total combat factors - TL15 40c +50 or 4050 in total.
TL14 7c + 70 or 770

The white on red colonial forces include a further 2 TL15 5c field armies for a total of 4550 TL15

The bulk of Imperial Army and colonial forces are TL15.

Now onto the marines and huscarls - there are 8 TL15 5 marine regiments, total 40., and 6 TL15 1 huscarl batalions for a total of 6

Running total 4596 combat factors of TL15

regular TL14 forces 770 combat factors.

So I would suggest that actually all those armies and corps if split down, would not consist of all TL-15 (or TL-14 if Zhos) divisions and brigades. But rather they are an average of the provided combat values. So whilst there is an average of TL-15 there will still be a 30-40% TL-14 at Division level.

The counters and rules do not support this, as you could face a situation where the TL14/15 ratio is affected by casualties and thus degrade the unit to a lower TL, there is no such rule. (but would be an interesting house rule addition to the optional rules...)

Other than using ACRs which are unable to penetrate Zho CA, which I agree is silly (but they could use (AP rounds set of the CSC rules) what does it matter if the majority of your logistics and infantry are lower TL (assuming you can’t have everyone in, for whatever reason, BD and FGMPs).

The gauss rifle is far superior an is TL12.

You want the real sharp end of your assets to be TL-15/14. Your tanks, assault troops, speeders, MA artillery etc. It’s in these areas where the battles are really won or lost. Infantry are just there to slow everything down and stop wars descending into everything being flattened by extremely potent firepower.

And once again we need to take a look at the actual battlefield changes as TLs increase. In the past a major Imperial advantage is meson artillery at TL15. Now meson ortillery can be provided by gunships... at TL11. On a meson battlefield mobility and dispersion are key, too many units in close proximity and you lose the lot to one meson blast.

So perhaps FFW game can be thought of as the TL that best reflects where the average amount of combat values (CV) came from. In a 20 CV division I would imagine 6 or 7 of that would come from the meson batteries alone. Perhaps 5 from the infantry and the rest from armoured assets and speeders or more traditional artillery. But this is the great problem with FFW the ground combat doesn’t really work. I made my own version in lockdown that gave each unit a Firepower and a separate damage absorption value and removed TL completely. Infantry would lose firepower a lot more slowly whilst if armour could be damaged it would start to loose effectiveness much more quickly. Trying to reflect the ability for infantry to stick out a fight despite a loss of command and organisation. It was much more satisfactory. It all fell apart when I tried to add logistical requirements in and I started to need excel to keep track of everything. But the idea I had was the imperials main asset was they needed a lot less logistical support as they were able to make a lot more on the battlefield whilst the zho relied on a much larger tail.

That sounds really interesting.

 

[actionman]

IF the Emperor decides to do it, it happens. What the Emperor decides to do it likely vastly different than what the bureaucrats want to happen.

I'm watching a very interesting video right now about how this works in the UK government. I don't know if it's permissible to post the link, since its political content.

 

[collins355]

tomfreshwater wrote:
"But this is the great problem with FFW the ground combat doesn’t really work."

I'm intrigued to know more about this view - as someone who has played a lot of FFW over the decades (plus Invasion: Earth, plus T4/Imperial Squadrons). Can you flesh out your concern a bit?

 

[2K3Gamer]

The book does say the Imperial Army is equipped for the most part to a uniform TL12. I'd suggest all the communications, battle management system and electronic ware would be TL15 (page 15 has TL 15 I-Spec Battle Management System, so that tracks).

The Battle Management Systems (BMS) on page 44-45 do not give the advantages of quicker orders and calling artillery, ortillery on targets. I'd suggest this only includes the BMS with the communications being seperate types.

I'd think the TL12 Imperial ACR would have the option of AP rounds to defeat TL14 Zhodani personnel armour.

I thunk the sourcebook is missing a big opportunity in that none of the organisations have the Mercenary CEI/ECEI/CBAS values and such things as what constitutes good . The original Traveller rules had some good skill and morale for the different alien races. For example Consular Guard had lesser skills and morale (I think) as they are selected for psi ability not training. Players could act as commanders using Tactics and other skills. Otherwise it is a collection of table of organisations.

I personally do not think the organisations have enough artillery

 

[actionman]

I reviewed the procurement article again. It seems immersed in rl thinking.

Imperial nobles don't have to worry about reelection. They don't have to worry about keeping constituents, lobbyists, special interest groups, or the media happy. All of those have to worry about keeping Imperial nobles happy. Imperial nobles have to worry about court intrigue and keeping their noble superiors happy.

• There are at most 28 sector dukes, and some of those sectors aren't much.
• There are 328 subsector dukes, whose influence at the level of the Imperial Court would be minimal to nonexistent.
• There are 13 Imperial megacorporations, which are owned or dominated by Imperial noble families. These are the corporations which would have greater or lesser degrees of influence at court or in the military procurement process.
• There are 4 branches of the Imperial Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts) and let's add another for the various Imperial bureaucracies, so 5.

That makes about 46 powerful people.

This is not that many people to keep happy (or not too upset). They should very well be able to come to an agreement among themselves, especially when failure to do so can have serious consequences (loss of favor at court, loss of position, vulnerability to intrigue, or worse).

The contentment of member world populations is not the Imperium's responsibility. It's the responsibility of the planetary governments, and planetary populations know that. Planetary governments can rise and fall. Membership in the Imperium remains (or else). Planetary fiefholders and subsector dukes are the ones who would be concerned with restive planetary populations, and they have negligible influence on the procurement process. If a planetary population is restive to the point of impairing military procurement or readiness, one of the megacorporations could most likely be prevailed upon to build some industry to provide jobs. Since reducing transportation time and cost is of prime importance, I doubt that military production would be shifted to a suboptimal location to placate the poors.

Roles for which the Imperial Army would need to procure equipment.

• Near peer enemies. The Imperial Army has fought 4 major wars against near peer adversaries in 130 years. These adversaries are initially on the offensive, and they can deliberately strike poorly-defended Imperial worlds. The Imperial Army needs to field units with the best possible technological edge. To fail to do so is to invite defeat.
• Internal security: Revolutionary militias and rebellious planetary armies can easily acquire high TL weaponry, especially if they expect Imperial intervention. If the Imperial Army has to take on a well-prepared planetary army, units deployed to that world could find themselves extremely outnumbered and in a very difficult position. They'll need the best gear they can get.
• Defense against Vargr and Aslan raiders, and punitive expeditions. These adversaries will have equipment of various TL's, but they'll still be at or above TL12. The Imperial Army had better to be able to beat them.

 

[Terry Mixon]

In my mind, the procurement argument is a smokescreen. The Imperium needs to outfit their Army at TL15 like it does its Navy and for the same reason: otherwise it will get trashed. No offense to the author, but it’s BS.

If one goes with the Dark Imperium, perhaps noble and Megacorporate greed is the reason for this failure and it should really play that way when the Zho roll into the Marches.

 

[Condottiere]

Undoubtedly, the core of the Imperium Army is technological level fifteen, with some special units equipped with technological level sixteen equipment.

But, the frontier units might not get the latest equipment, or the local governors have some hand in ensuring that they that they are adequately equipped, adequate depending on their definition.

Technological level twelve being the minimum acceptable, so in that logic, considering Mercenary tends to indicate the run of the mill ground forces are equipped one technological level lower, would seem to make the equipping at technological level thirteen.

 

[actionman]

The Imperium needs to outfit their Army at TL15 like it does its Navy and for the same reason: otherwise it will get trashed.

Exactly. The Imperial Army would develop it mission requirements and begin its procurement process from there. Some units would need battledress, FGMPs, and grav tanks for their mission. Others would require combat armor and gauss rifles, and still others would be better served by cloth armor, gauss rifles, and grav APCs. I argue that all of this equipment would be manufactured at TL15. TL15 combat armor is going to be a lot better than TL12 combat armor, and so on. Given that transportation time is a challenge the Imperium can't do anything about, the forces it deploys to a world in conflict had better be as capable and resilient as possible.

As for reducing the production TL to 12 so more worlds can provide industrial capacity, that's playing to lose. One can be sure that the Imperium's near peer enemies would know this, and produce strike forces at TL14. If TL15 industrial capacity were lacking, the Imperium would set about building it as it was able.

If one goes with the Dark Imperium, perhaps noble and Megacorporate greed is the reason for this failure and it should really play that way when the Zho roll into the Marches.

Agreed. Corruption would be a very likely cause. For example, a sector duke who has an influential role in the procurement process steers contracts to a megacorporation in which his family and his wife's family have a hidden interest. Once it receives the contracts to produce TL15 grav APC's, the megacorporation pockets the money and produces cheap low quality TL12 vehicles. During the next Zhodani invasion, Imperial Army units find themselves unable to hold because their vehicles are hopelessly outmatched by TL14 and 15 Zhodani units. Critical worlds fall unexpectedly quickly, and when the Imperial Army attempts to take the offensive, it sustains unusually heavy casualties.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Exactly. The Imperial Army would develop it mission requirements and begin its procurement process from there. Some units would need battledress, FGMPs, and grav tanks for their mission. Others would require combat armor and gauss rifles, and still others would be better served by cloth armor, gauss rifles, and grav APCs. I argue that all of this equipment would be manufactured at TL15. TL15 combat armor is going to be a lot better than TL12 combat armor, and so on. Given that transportation time is a challenge the Imperium can't do anything about, the forces it deploys to a world in conflict had better be as capable and resilient as possible.

As for reducing the production TL to 12 so more worlds can provide industrial capacity, that's playing to lose. One can be sure that the Imperium's near peer enemies would know this, and produce strike forces at TL14. If TL15 industrial capacity were lacking, the Imperium would set about building it as it was able.



Agreed. Corruption would be a very likely cause. For example, a sector duke who has an influential role in the procurement process steers contracts to a megacorporation in which his family and his wife's family have a hidden interest. Once it receives the contracts to produce TL15 grav APC's, the megacorporation pockets the money and produces cheap low quality TL12 vehicles. During the next Zhodani invasion, Imperial Army units find themselves unable to hold because their vehicles are hopelessly outmatched by TL14 and 15 Zhodani units. Critical worlds fall unexpectedly quickly, and when the Imperial Army attempts to take the offensive, it sustains unusually heavy casualties.

I hope this is the way it plays out. That would be a fun area to game in afterwards.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Undoubtedly, the core of the Imperium Army is technological level fifteen, with some special units equipped with technological level sixteen equipment.

But, the frontier units might not get the latest equipment, or the local governors have some hand in ensuring that they that they are adequately equipped, adequate depending on their definition.

Technological level twelve being the minimum acceptable, so in that logic, considering Mercenary tends to indicate the run of the mill ground forces are equipped one technological level lower, would seem to make the equipping at technological level thirteen.

That is not the way the Imperium structures its armies. This mess all began with GT Ground Forces and the preposterous ideas contained within.

Ever since LBB:4 we are told that the Imperium protects its frontiers with limited numbers of top tier forces - namely the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy.

Frontier worlds maintain their own armed forces equipped to local TLs+ whatever they can afford to import, and some of them are capable enough to be worth drafting into the Imperial order of battle in the event of a conflict - these are the colonial army counters in the FFW boardgame. The ones that are local TL and planet bound are the planetary troop factors in the FFW boardgame.

The lack of Imperial Army units to maintain the peace is why worlds and subsector nobles hire mercenaries, which can also be Imperialised if they are good enough.

Ignore all that combined armies garbage, the armies of the Imperium are:
mercenaries
planetary armies
"colonial" army units
regular Imperial army
huscarls of subsector dukes

to which you can add the Imperial Star Marines and IISS special forces...