Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[tomfreshwater]

One benefit of a lower TL could be that it would allow the use of fabricators to produce all spare parts and ammo much closer to the point of use? Therefore reducing the ‘tail’ of imperial units. You could conceive enormous recycling vehicles molecularly breaking down what would essentially be battlefield waste into raw materials to feed back into fabricators? If not those, then at least providing raw materials to the front would be much more straight forward logistically? Considering you could turn your raw materials into what was needed preventing you having a spare turret facile when all you needed was another helmet?
Of course TL-13 would be the aim for production with TL-15 fabricators.

 

[Condottiere]

I would think more, that it would depend on what they're facing, and how much resources they've allocated to a particular arm, or branch, of their military.

 

[MasterGwydion]

One benefit of a lower TL could be that it would allow the use of fabricators to produce all spare parts and ammo much closer to the point of use? Therefore reducing the ‘tail’ of imperial units. You could conceive enormous recycling vehicles molecularly breaking down what would essentially be battlefield waste into raw materials to feed back into fabricators? If not those, then at least providing raw materials to the front would be much more straight forward logistically? Considering you could turn your raw materials into what was needed preventing you having a spare turret facile when all you needed was another helmet?
Of course TL-13 would be the aim for production with TL-15 fabricators.

Except there are somethings that We know of that cannot be made with Fabricators in Charted Space, such as Bonded Superdense armor. (At least not until TL-17 or 19. I don't remember exactly which one @Terry Mixon and I were discussing at one point)

 

[tomfreshwater]

Well you couldn’t make a spare turret then. But are you going to be making much of the armour for your combat armour out of superdense materials? For instance we don’t just use the latest ceramic armour for body armour? It is only used as the very top thin layer to shatter rifle rounds and then Kevlar underneath, which does the really life saving. So in the imperial army the top layer couldn’t be made but the bulk of the under components could be. Would you use superdense materials in the components for inside your armoured vehicles, or ammunition?
More fabricators I say

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well you couldn’t make a spare turret then. But are you going to be making much of the armour for your combat armour out of superdense materials? For instance we don’t just use the latest ceramic armour for body armour? It is only used as the very top thin layer to shatter rifle rounds and then Kevlar underneath, which does the really life saving. So in the imperial army the top layer couldn’t be made but the bulk of the under components could be. Would you use superdense materials in the components for inside your armoured vehicles, or ammunition?
More fabricators I say

The problem is that we don't know if any of the super high-tech stuff is made from stuff like superdense. For all we know it could be used in wiring or light bulbs too. So, in theory, yes, but in reality, how do you use a TL-13 part on TL-15 armor?

Also, a problem. We have rules for Fabricators, but not Makers. Makers were able to build entire starships, Fabricators can not.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I would think more, that it would depend on what they're facing, and how much resources they've allocated to a particular arm, or branch, of their military.

They are facing the Zhodani, the Solomani, the Julian Protectorate, and the Vargr states that take a dislike this week.

You don't build an Army or navy to face that threat level at anything but your TL maximum.

 

[Condottiere]

Governments tend to prioritize, especially when something costs them money.

If I recall correctly, seventy percent of the military budget goes to the Navy.

Even if you go for a one in a thousand ratio for ground forces, that's still a pretty vast number of personnel you have to equip and pay for.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You have a vast number of credits to pay for it, the "taxation base" of the Imperium is vast...

The Imperium has roughly ten field armies in the FFW, which I estimate as being of the order of 5 million men at arms - note that infantry, artillery, cavalry units will have different numbers, and combat vehicles for some units are going to be more expensive than for others.

That's 5 trillion credits for the entire Imperial Army available during the FFW boardgame, one BatRon of Tigress class costs in the order of 2.8 trillion credits... this is using CT numbers.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Except there are somethings that We know of that cannot be made with Fabricators in Charted Space, such as Bonded Superdense armor. (At least not until TL-17 or 19. I don't remember exactly which one @Terry Mixon and I were discussing at one point)

TL19 Superior Fabricators can make collapsed materials according to Geir.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The problem is that we don't know if any of the super high-tech stuff is made from stuff like superdense. For all we know it could be used in wiring or light bulbs too. So, in theory, yes, but in reality, how do you use a TL-13 part on TL-15 armor?

Also, a problem. We have rules for Fabricators, but not Makers. Makers were able to build entire starships, Fabricators can not.

A big enough TL19 Advanced Fabricator could make a starship in hours. Just not the collapsed armor.

 

[MasterGwydion]

TL19 Superior Fabricators can make collapsed materials according to Geir.

I knew it existed. I just didn't remember what TL it existed at. Thanks!

 

[Terry Mixon]

I knew it existed. I just didn't remember what TL it existed at. Thanks!

This isn’t a printed rule in any book, just what he says.

 

[MasterGwydion]

This isn’t a printed rule in any book, just what he says.

Yeah, but it was based on the book saying that TL-19 could create stuff down to the quantum level, so it makes sense.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, but it was based on the book saying that TL-19 could create stuff down to the quantum level, so it makes sense.

TL-19 also may be the earliest you can have a Ferengi barkeep...

 

[Terry Mixon]

TL-19 also may be the earliest you can have a Ferengi barkeep...

If you're not going to buy a drink, you need to move along.

 

[actionman]

Some more in depth feedback:
"There are also economic factors. The Imperial Army must arm millions of soldiers* – and also move them**, feed them, house them and keep them supplied***. There is only so much TL15 manufacturing in the Imperium.**** This would need to not only provide all the new weapons and equipment but also all the spares and supplies required to keep it working."*****

*Arming millions of soldiers is a drop in the bucket compared with the IN funding.
** They are mobile thanks to the IN, BatRons and Assault Squadrons carry the Imperial Army, their equipment, and theri logistics tail.
*** Which is what waystations were originally for "lmperial Way Station. A base established for the repair, maintenance, and overhaul of lmperial equipment. It may include provisions for Army troop barracks, naval and scout ship overhauls, and intelligence operations"
**** There is more than enough TL15 manufacturing capacity within the Imperium for the Imperium to be designated as TL15 overall, not to mention that corporations can build TL15 manufacturing on any planet. Who makes a dividend from all the procurement contracts for the Army? Why that would be the shareholders - who just happen to be Imperial nobility, the Emperor and their family, and a few megacorp CEOs...
***** oh no, so the shareholders make even more money...

Agreed on all points. This post is additional comments.

"There are also economic factors.

The Imperial tax base is incalculably vast.

The Imperial Army must arm millions of soldiers* – and also move them**, feed them, house them and keep them supplied

The logistics officer swipes the unit credit card, and the problem is solved. Adventure hook: The travellers and their ship are commandeered to transport troops and/or equipment.

There is only so much TL15 manufacturing in the Imperium.**** This would need to not only provide all the new weapons and equipment but also all the spares and supplies required to keep it working."*****

These are challenges, but they are nowhere close to insurmountable challenges.

Imperial military planners would make their logistical projections using centuries of data. The economists (probably noble-born) would prepare an economic development plan that would meet these requirements and brief the Emperor. The Emperor would task the sector dukes and the megacorps (noble-owned) to build the required profitable TL15 manufacturing capability that could support military production as a secondary function in peacetime, and as a primary function in wartime. The Emperor would command the Imperial bureaucracy to develop a taxation system to provide the required funding. This would be an ongoing process over the centuries of the Third Imperium's existence, and IMO the bureaucracy would be very good at it.

Adventure hook: More jobs for noble characters, with lead-ins to adventures.

The Imperium has been at TL15 for so long that stockpiled weapons and equipment would have been manufactured at TL15, as are older ships. Even the Kinunir was TL15. Even older TL14 equipment would still be effective. There would probably be one or more subsector military depots, keeping stockpiled equipment maintained in case of a major mobilization.

"High-technology systems require a lot of support, and that requires large numbers of technicians capable of understanding it*. An all-TL15 army would need to educate its maintenance personnel to that level, at enormous cost.**

Equipment and vehicles would be designed for ease of maintenance, as in replace the damaged part. Only depot-level maintenance would need to understand how a component actually works. Why would the cost be enormous? There would be plenty of TL15 training resources like expert systems, etc.. Imperial military planners would understand the need for trained maintenance personnel and be prepared to train new technicians in the event of a major war.

Something else is the lack of political considerations. The rl paradigm of governments maintaining small militaries in peacetime then expanding rapidly in wartime doesn't necessarily apply to the Third Imperium.

The Third Imperium is an absolute monarchy. It is totally unaccountable to anyone, least of all the citizenry it collects taxes from. There are no competing fiscal demands from elected officials, constituents, social welfare programs, or anything else. If the Emperor decides to spend uncountable fortunes on a massive army and navy during peacetime, he does it.

All the challenges quoted from the book can be overcome with long-term planning and determined political will. The only limitations are the physical resources of Imperium and the tax revenue the Imperial government is able to collect.

 

[mavikfelna]

To add to the above from @actionman, the computational and automation resources of the Imperium are TL15 almost everywhere. That means expert systems track and manage everything and vast automated warehouses are able to store, organize and ship anytime, anywhere. It may take weeks for an order to reach where it's going, but it will reach it on time and on budget and the personnel onsite will be able to use it immediately.
The Imperium is a logistics organization at its core. It is the only way it could manage the hundreds of lightyears of space and thousands of worlds without collapse for so long.

 

[Anstett]

The Third Imperium is an absolute monarchy. It is totally unaccountable to anyone, least of all the citizenry it collects taxes from. There are no competing fiscal demands from elected officials, constituents, social welfare programs, or anything else. If the Emperor decides to spend uncountable fortunes on a massive army and navy during peacetime, he does it.

All the challenges quoted from the book can be overcome with long-term planning and determined political will. The only limitations are the physical resources of Imperium and the tax revenue the Imperial government is able to collect.

(added formatting to Actionman's quote to highlight my thoughts)

I think that this right here is the crux of the problem.

IF the Emperor decides to do it, it happens. What the Emperor decides to do it likely vastly different than what the bureaucrats want to happen.

I work in government. I know what we should be doing. I know what many people think we should be doing. Sometimes that actually is the same thing. However those in the chain up above have different ideas. Different priorities, etc.

Reading through the later part of this thread is very much well intentioned "this is the logical thing that should be happening", "there are virtually unlimited resources, why not do it", "there have been centuries to make better plans", etc.

The Imperial Navy, Army, Scouts, etc. all have their own input on what should have changed after the Fourth Frontier War. Who has the upper hand and the ear of the accountants? Who is paranoid about the Hivers? Who wants to increase X to Y subsector for Z reason?

And yes all that is easily overcome by one or two people ignoring what they are being told to do and doing what they know is the better option.....


From 1082 to 1105 how agile do you think that the Imperial Bureaucracy is to move things around, change who/what/where?

 

[Condottiere]

The government can always print more money.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Hey we just fought a short war (the fourth frontier war) with the TL14 Zhodani, our TL15 kit managed to hold them at bay, what should we do when they come back?

Re-equip to TL12 standards that will fool them.

I can see this happening as Star General Melchett is in charge... with duke Percy of Percy in charge of procurement