Are damage dice necessary?

[Infojunky]

The question is, do you really need to roll dice for damage when we have a metric (effect) for measuring the quality of a hit?

 

[Madarin Dude]

I think it is necessary. When you only have a small chance of hitting does not mean you only can do minimum damage. Example if you are behind cover with only your head and shoulders exposed you only have a remote chance to get hit but the chance of getting grave damage is pretty good after all the head is exposed.

Rolemaster had a similar system to that. Was not any faster.

 

[EDG]

You could take the "Reign" approach and use one dice roll for absolutely everything

 

[Infojunky]

Both of those are good thoughts, Just pondering adapting the penetration system from AHL and Striker to MGT.....

 

[Golan2072]

I was toying with the idea of a Striker-style penetration and damage system for MGT, that is using penetration vs. armor and a penetration table and abstract damage (e.g. Light Wounds, Serious Wounds, Dead) rather than damage dice and damaging attributes. The main reason for me thinking about this is speeding up play during combat and avoiding the MGT armor system, which I don't like that much.

So the idea is: If you hit a target in combat, roll 2d6 on the following table, add the weapon's penetration score and the Effect of your attack roll and subtract the target's armour score.

Alternatively, instead of adding your Effect to your Penetration Table roll, Effect determines how many rolls you get on the table: Effect 1-2 grants you one roll, Effect 3 grants 2 rolls, 4+ 3 rolls. Full Auto doubles this number.

2D6   RESULT
 0-    No Damage
1-2   Stun
3-8   Light Wound
9-11  Serious Wound
12+   Death

Stun is a flesh wound or a light concussion, causing a -2 DM to all of the target's action for the next combat round. Each Light Wound causes a -1 DM to all actions; once you have accumulated a number of Light Wounds equal to half your Endurance score (round up) they become a Serious Wound. Serious Wounds cause unconsciousness; 2 Serious Wounds kill.

Fragmentation/Anti-Personnel rounds usually have a lower penetration score but cause one "step" more damage if they penetrate (that is, cause a Stun wound or more); i.e. Stun becomes a Light Wound, a Light Wound becomes a Serious one and a Serious Wound becomes lethal.

Some Penetration values:
Bare Hands, Club or Body Pistol: 0
Staff, Knife, most light Pistols: 1
Sword, Axe, Heavy Pistols, SMG: 2
Carbine, Assault Rifle: 3
Full-Bore Rifle, Autorifle, Broadsword: 4
Laser Carbine: 5
Laser Rifle: 6

Some Armor vales:
Unarmored: 0
Jack: 1
Mesh: 2
Flack-Jacket: 3
Cloth/Vacc Suit: 5

My main worry about this system is that it might make things a bit too lethal - realistically so, but would it fit a game well?

Also, I'll have to decide between Effect adding hits (as in Striker) and Effect added to the Penetration roll.

Regarding the heavier Melee weapons, I'm considering the option of decreasing their Penetration to 1 or 2 in most cases but making the more powerful ones (axes and broadswords) Anti-Personnel weapons, that is, increasing their wound by one "step".

A possible solution to the Effect issue is to have three kinds of attacks: Standard, Aimed and Sniping.

In a Standard attack - the usual procedure in most firefights - the shooter shoots the target several times in rapid succession (if he's using a semi-automatic weapon) or unleashes a burst of automatic fire (if using an automatic weapon) attempting to hit the target as many times as possible. In this case the effect determines the number of hits (Penetration rolls) rolled; automatic fire also adds a +DM to hit (and thus is more likely to hit more than once).

In an Aimed attack, on the other hand, the shooter tries to hit the target in a more sensitive area with a single, well-aimed shot. Aimed attacks always cause single hits, don't get a DM from automatic fire, can only be done in a Short or Medium range (unless the shooter is using a scope, in which case this restriction is removed) requires a clean shot (no concealment/cover) and prevent the shooter from moving in the same combat round; the shooter's Effect, however, is applied to the Penetration roll.

In Sniping the shooter aims for maximal accuracy, trying to hit weak spots in the target's armor. Sniping requires one full round of aiming prior to the shot, requires the shooter to be stationary, requires Short or Medium range (or a scope in longer ranges), requires a clean shot (no concealment/cover), allows only a single shot (no autofire DM) and incurs a -2 DM to hit. If successful, it halves the target's armor AND applies any Effect to the Penetration roll. This way, for example, an RPG (Penetration 20) could still damage a tank (Armor 40) by attacking weak spots in its armor.

There should probably be three types of combatants in order to keep the book-keeping minimal: Heroes, Mooks and Bugs.

Heroes - PCs and major/elite NPCs - use the fully-detailed damage rules posted above.

Mooks - less important/trained NPCs - are out of combat when they receive ANY sort of real wound (Light, Severe or Death). They may or may not be alive after combat but that is up to the Referee (if you must roll, then on a roll of 8+ on 2d6 when the wound was from light weapons of 12+ when the wound was from heavy weapons).

Bugs - monstrous creatures of various kinds - ignore Light and Stun wounds but are utterly killed by any Serious wound.

 

[Sturn]

I like what you are doing Golan. I've always liked the idea of wound levels over keeping track of "hit points". Hit points always seemed unrealistic to me and added to record keeping.

I completely understand the Hero-Mook slant for game purposes, but that kind of thing has always bothered me in modern and sci-fi games where the players are just "normal" people, not super heroes such as in a fantasy setting. It would help greatly with book-keeping however and keep players alive longer without referee fudging.

You could add weapon type changes also. As in a stun or blunt weapon doing only stun or light damage, etc.

By penetration table do you mean the one you displayed above that I might call a damage table?

 

[Golan2072]

I like what you are doing Golan. I've always liked the idea of wound levels over keeping track of "hit points". Hit points always seemed unrealistic to me and added to record keeping.

Thanks!

I completely understand the Hero-Mook slant for game purposes, but that kind of thing has always bothered me in modern and sci-fi games where the players are just "normal" people, not super heroes such as in a fantasy setting. It would help greatly with book-keeping however and keep players alive longer without referee fudging.

This is mainly done to avoid book-keeping. Players are still very vulnerable: 2.7% of bare hands attacks (Penetration 0) will kill (!) an unarmored PC, and guns are quite lethal unless you're wearing armor.

But anyhow, if you want greater realism, just count the wounds for each NPC the same way you do for PCs.

You could add weapon type changes also. As in a stun or blunt weapon doing only stun or light damage, etc.

Good idea. I'll also add specialized armour-piercing rounds (quadruple cost, double Penetration, damage moved one "step" lower on the table with a minimum of Light Wound).

By penetration table do you mean the one you displayed above that I might call a damage table?

Yes.

 

[Sturn]

The rule about "once you receive a # of light wounds equal to half endurance, it becomes a serious wound" seems to remove the benefit of lesser book-keeping. You are back to keeping track of "hits" on a sheet. Not sure how to avoid this. Perhaps if your current wound level gave another DM to the damage table? A.i. if you are already Lightly Wounded, apply a +2 DM to any damage rolls on the table. Seriously Wounded, apply a +4 DM, etc. May need tweaked (perhaps +1 DM, and +2 DM, etc), but this way you remove the need to keep track of number of wounds and are just left with your current would level.

 

[Golan2072]

Just assume that most NPCs have END 7. This way, mark an "X" or a "V" next to that NPC's name on your Referee notes for every Light wounds; four "X"s or "V"s are a Serious wound.

EDIT: Also, for NPCs, there is little need to track damage once a Serious wound was received - the NPC is out of combat with such a wound.