AoOs as an optional rule

[Malefacus]

I never realy like D20. We never play it. But Conan is the best version of the rules I've seen. So we are giving it a try. Like I said, we are all new to these rules, and we had some problems understanding how some rules work, or could work. Like the AoOs. Can someone explain me what is the idea behind that one?

We all thought that the AoOs rule was weird and a heavy mechanic addition to the combat system. The book said it's an opptional rule. But we found it in so many places! Can someone realy drop it without unbalancing the whole system? I wonder if any of you play the game without it? What adjustment do you have to do? And do you enjoy this rule?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I use it- an Attack of Opportunity represent when someone leaves themselves open to counterattack by dropping their guard around a wary opponent. It makes sense- if you stop defending yourself long enough to say, rummage around your kit bag for something, expose your back to an armed opponent or try to use unarmed attacks against a ready and armed opponent then you opponent(s) can take advantage of it to get a free attack on you. I believe that most characters are limited to one AoO a round unless they possess the Combat Reflexes Feat- which gives them the option of an additional AoO per their Dexterity bonus per round.

To get a better idea on what action provoke an AoO there is a chart of Combat Actions in the chapter on Combat that is a good starting point. Some Combat Maneuvers may only be used on opponents who provoke an AoO so if you are planning to use those rules, you'll have to know AoO rules as well.

Thus is why I like RPG as opposed to CCGs, videogames, etc. It encourages reading. 8)

 

[Trodax]

I like AoO's, and have always used them in my games. I think they are a great way by which the rules restrict certain actions in combat, for example moving right through a horde of enemies or firing a bow when someone is hacking at you with an axe.
That being said, I think they sort of rely on that you use a battle map of sorts for your combats (thats not been a problem for me, as I always use a grid-map and miniatures for my d20 games). I know a lot of people do use AoO's without a map, but then I think it will be a little trickier to advocate when they do and do not take place.

You can probably remove them from the game, but I think it would take a bit of work as there are quite a lot of feats, class features and actions you can take in combat that are based on them.

To understand how they work, you really need to understand how a character threatens the space around him. Usually, a character threatens everything 1 square (5') away, but this can be more if he has Reach (armed with a long weapon, or if he's a big monster). These squares are called his 'threatened squares'. An AoO is provoked whenever an enemy does one of the two following things:

1) Moves out of one of your threatened squares. Note that its when an enemy leaves, as opposed to enters, one of your threatened squares that you get an AoO against him. This is important as it allows enemies to move into close combat with you, but not move away, or around and past you as they wish (well they can, but you'll get to whack them an extra time for free).
Oh, and one more important thing; you do not provoke an AoO if you just take a 5'-step. This is a special exception that makes it possible to slowly work your way around in combat and get into flanking positions and such.

2) Performs certain distracting actions while in one of your threatened squares. Such actions include firing a bow, casting a spell etc. The table 'Actions in Combat' (AE, page 155) notes which actions provoke AoO's.

Whenever an AoO is provoked (because of 1 or 2 above), you just get an extra attack against the enemy that provoked it. This attack is taken immediately, even if it isn't your turn, and can sometimes even disrupt what your enemy was doing (for example, if a sorcerer is trying to cast a spell, and you hit him hard enough, he might loose the spell). However, you may only make one AoO each round (unless, as Raven pointed out, you have the feat Combat Reflexes).

I hope this long post was in some way helpful...

 

[argo]

I never realy like D20. We never play it. But Conan is the best version of the rules I've seen. So we are giving it a try. Like I said, we are all new to these rules, and we had some problems understanding how some rules work, or could work. Like the AoOs. Can someone explain me what is the idea behind that one?

The idea springs from one of the fundamental concepts of d20 combat in general: all characters are presumed to be hyper-competent and performing at peak capacity at all times. In combat each character is assumed to be looking in all directions, keeping track of all enemies and just generally defending himself to the best of his ability. AoO's represent the exception to this defense, moments when the character is distracted or otherwise opens up a hole in his defense exposing him to attack.

AoO's also serve a balance purpose. Certain moves that are deemed stronger than a plain melee attack (trip, grapple, etc) provoke AoO's as a penalty. Actions which are not supposed to be part of melee combat (making a ranged attack and spellcasting) draw an AoO. And perhaps most importantly movement past an active opponent draws an AoO: this is impotrant to reinforce the tactical wargamming aspect of d20 combat, without AoO's it is nearly impossible to form a "defensive line", the enemy can just stroll past you to attack your VIP's at will. Oh, and AoO's also give big monsters with natural reach an advantage that makes them more scarry.

We all thought that the AoOs rule was weird and a heavy mechanic addition to the combat system. The book said it's an opptional rule. But we found it in so many places! Can someone realy drop it without unbalancing the whole system? I wonder if any of you play the game without it? What adjustment do you have to do? And do you enjoy this rule?

The thing about AoO's is that they are effectievly an entire universe of combat options unto themselves. Remove them from the game and the rest of the engine chugs along just fine. There are balance issues however: mooks become more powerful and big monsters less so, archers risk becomming overpowered while certian melee builds focused on minign AoO's become totally useless, reach weapons loose a lot of power and arguably become a liability and lastly a whole bunch of feats and abilities loose their punch (this affects the Barbarian and Nomad some but the Soldier most of all).

My advice? If you want to try to "simplify" the game then remove all AoO's except for the following:
-movement through a threatened square
-making a ranged attack
-spellcasting
-unarmed strikes
-grappling

Those are probably the 5 most important AoO's for balance purposes and luckily they are also some of the easiest to remember. Perhaps if you get used to those then later you could try adapting to the rest.

Hope that helps.

 

[Malefacus]

Thanks to all. Now I'm much more comfortable with the concept. Special thanks to *Argo*.

(In combat each character is assumed to be looking in all directions, keeping track of all enemies and just generally defending himself to the best of his ability. AoO's represent the exception to this defense, moments when the character is distracted or otherwise opens up a hole in his defense exposing him to attack.)

The way you explain it make a lot of things more clear to me. We will keep them. It's a good idea, just a bit hard to fully understand. Keep posting your sugestions and though on the matter.[/quote]

 

[Sutek]

Just remeber that any one character only gets one AoO per source, so a target moving through more than one of his threatened squares doesn't provoke more than one AoO, unless of course he's doing something else that provokes (casting, shooting, etc.).

:wink:

 

[Malefacus]

I re-read the combat section trying to better understand AoOs. Now I'm all confuse. The actions combat table say that a 5-foot step provoke an AoO if it is made as part of (or combined with) an action that would do so such as using the full Attack action with a bow. From that I understand that using any standard OR move action that would provoke an AoO and taking a 5-foot step in the same round cost you an AoO while taking your 5-foot step. Such as taking a 5-foot setp and use a skill or preforming a ranged attack as a standard action. So there would be no way to attack someone in melee combat with a range weapon without proviking an AoO. Samething for skills use in melee combat.

But, the diagram on the page 162 say that Valeria use the 5-foot step to avoid an AoO from the pict and fires her bow. ????????

Man! When can you take a 5-foot step without provoking an AoO? Combine with what type of actions?

 

[Sutek]

Don't worry. That's confusing at first.

The 5'step itself doesn't provoke anything, but if that step is taken in the same round as another action that does provoke, then the step will provoke also.

A perfect example of this is a round in which someone tries to take a 5'step away and then cast a spell. The casting would have provoked had they stayed where they were, but they were trying to avoid that happening by cleverly taking a 5'step away from thier opponent. However, the rule your citing says that because the casting of the spell provokes, then the 5'step away does too, just as if it were a normal full move action.

 

[Trodax]

Oooh, I understand your confusion. This has been discussed a lot on this forum in the past, use the search function if you want to check it out.

Basically, the picture on page 162 is wrong; just ignore what it says about Valeria there.

Thing is, in D&D this is how it works; a 5-foot step never provokes an AoO. Therefore, as long as your opponent doesn't have reach, you can always just back away from him and fire a bow or cast a spell without provoking AoO. You can actually keep doing this each round, and he can keep following you with a 5-foot step and attacking, until your back hits a wall or whatever (then your screwed).

In Conan, they wanted to make it harder on archers and spellcasters and introduced this extra rule that says that a 5-foot step does provoke if its followed by an action that provokes. The effect is that you can't use the backing away tactic as you can in D&D.
(Actually, what you can do is to step away from your enemy, and if he doesn't follow you, you're free to do whatever you want in the next round. Its a backing away tactic, but it costs you an extra round, and your opponent can always choose to follow you and press his advantage.)
Basically, in Conan, archers and spellcasters are screwed when they end up in melee!

Hope that was clear.

 

[Auggie]

I never usa AoO in any of my games. I don't want to reduce combat in an RPG to a board game and miniatures. There are very few Feats that we can't use because they are used in AoE, but we get by without them

The only time I do use AoO, is in a miniatures game like the STAR WARS MINIATURE game.

 

[Malefacus]

Thanks Trodax
I read the old thread and it is absolutely confusing. But I agree with you. To idea behind it is just as you said and that's what I'll remenber when applying the rules.

Basically, in Conan, archers and spellcasters are screwed when they end up in melee!

So, tell me if I'm wrong. The + you get when taking a 5 foot step before going in full round attacks with a bow when already engage in melee with an armed oppponent is:

1st: The 5-foot step IS provoking the AoO not the attack(but it provoke it BECAUSE you combine it in the same round with an attack) so you can get the +4 defense on that AoO from the mobility feat cause a 5-foot step is a move. This is assuming that when you take your 5-foot step you have already declare what will be your next action in the round cause your opponent attack you when you take your 5-foot step not when doing the next action. That is a bit weird. Anyways can you take benefit of the mobility feat?

2st: If an ennemy has the combat reflex feat he could attack you on each of your attacks on your full attack action if you stay close to him. With the 5-foot step, he attack you when you are taking your 5-oot step so you get the mobility feat bonus and he only attack you once, if you move out first with the 5-foot step then going full attack. Is that correct?

 

[geordiekimbo]

I never usa AoO in any of my games. I don't want to reduce combat in an RPG to a board game and miniatures. There are very few Feats that we can't use because they are used in AoE, but we get by without them

We use AoO in our games without using miniatures or a board and we manage just fine to leave them in. AoO come in damned useful sometimes, adding to the tactical feel of combat.

 

[argo]

The whole 5' step thing is a bit confusing because they attempted to change it from the way it worked in dnd but reused some of the same language. Not good.

The best way to understand how 5' steps interact with AoO's is this:
"If the only thing you do in a round is move, up to twice your normal movement, then the square you occupy at the beginning of your round is not considered threatened."

That language encompases both the Withdrawl action and the 5' step in one neat package.

Also, remember that you cannot take a 5' step in a round in which you have taken any other movement. One of your earlier posts seemd confused on that point.

Basically, in Conan, archers and spellcasters are screwed when they end up in melee!

So, tell me if I'm wrong. The + you get when taking a 5 foot step before going in full round attacks with a bow when already engage in melee with an armed oppponent is:

1st: The 5-foot step IS provoking the AoO not the attack(but it provoke it BECAUSE you combine it in the same round with an attack) so you can get the +4 defense on that AoO from the mobility feat cause a 5-foot step is a move. This is assuming that when you take your 5-foot step you have already declare what will be your next action in the round cause your opponent attack you when you take your 5-foot step not when doing the next action. That is a bit weird. Anyways can you take benefit of the mobility feat?

Yes you get the benefit of mobility. Please note that mobility is no longer a feat in Conan but is a class ability of certain classes.

Also, don't sweat it about "declaring actions". In practice nobody says "I'll take a 5' step then give me a few minutes to think about what to do next" and even if they do it is easy enough to say "ok now lets resolve that AoO you provoked" because no time has elapsed in game while they were making up their mind.

2st: If an ennemy has the combat reflex feat he could attack you on each of your attacks on your full attack action if you stay close to him. With the 5-foot step, he attack you when you are taking your 5-oot step so you get the mobility feat bonus and he only attack you once, if you move out first with the 5-foot step then going full attack. Is that correct?

Exactly so.

Just hope he doesn't use his AoO to sunder your bow ... :twisted:

Your doing good! Keep the questions comming!

 

[High Lord Dee]

I never usa AoO in any of my games. I don't want to reduce combat in an RPG to a board game and miniatures. There are very few Feats that we can't use because they are used in AoE, but we get by without them

The only time I do use AoO, is in a miniatures game like the STAR WARS MINIATURE game.

It is confusing at first but after awhile, it becomes second nature. A major advantage of the AoO is to keep the melee from breaking out into total chaos. An example of that would be the toughest fighter in the group running from point to point and whacking several opponents while avoiding being hit. Another critical element would be to prevent the characters with sneak attacks the ability to dance around danger and be swinging sneak attacks every round.

Just adds enough realism to keep things in check. Once the players understand the mechanism, you will be amazed at how rarely you will need to be rolling AoO because they usually are not worth the risk.

HLD

 

[Trodax]

Just adds enough realism to keep things in check. Once the players understand the mechanism, you will be amazed at how rarely you will need to be rolling AoO because they usually are not worth the risk.

That is exactly my experience as well. AoO are great!