Any house rules for dodge?

[Greg Smith]

Evading is second best to parrying - no attack can follow it, it is an opposed roll and no combat maneuvers are generated.

I understand that Runequest combat is all about attacking and parrying. Being able to avoid an attack would be significantly better than parrying.

But simply avoiding an enemy's weapon is a staple of cinematic combat. So, has anyone come up with house rules for dodging?

 

[Dan True]

Why? Parrying gives you the option of gaining CMs against your opponent, as dodge would still require a CA it would be wasted compared to a parry.

I also don't get what you mean, why isn't evade the same as dodge?

- Dan

 

[Deleriad]

Evading is second best to parrying - no attack can follow it, it is an opposed roll and no combat maneuvers are generated.

I understand that Runequest combat is all about attacking and parrying. Being able to avoid an attack would be significantly better than parrying.

But simply avoiding an enemy's weapon is a staple of cinematic combat. So, has anyone come up with house rules for dodging?

Actually it's an interesting point as to whether Evade can generate CMs. That probably needs a statement from Pete or Loz as to whether Evade can generate CMs. I've always played that they can as it's not explicitly stated that they can't but the running text generally only refers to parries.

On the other issue, Evade has a different spread of uses to Dodge. It is now used many types of manoeuvres and Combat Actions. It's much more of a manoeuvre skill than it is a straight-forward dodge skill. If you make it more useful for dodging weapons as well you risk making it somewhat uber.

E.g. In RQ3 you might have someone with heavy armour, shield and sword who never trained dodge because, frankly, it wasn't worth it. That same character in MRQII really ought to have trained in Evade otherwise he'll have enemies run rings around him when it comes to closing, tripping and so on. Not to mention getting out of the way of lightning bolts.

I think once you actually play C&C using RQ you'll start to find what a crucial combat skill it already is.

 

[Greg Smith]

Why? Parrying gives you the option of gaining CMs against your opponent, as dodge would still require a CA it would be wasted compared to a parry.

I also don't get what you mean, why isn't evade the same as dodge?

Why? Because you may not have a weapon. Because a dagger is not much use parrying a battleaxe.

Evading is disadvantageous. I am thinking of avoiding blows that does not involve loss of attacks.

On the other issue, Evade has a different spread of uses to Dodge. It is now used many types of manoeuvres and Combat Actions. It's much more of a manoeuvre skill than it is a straight-forward dodge skill. If you make it more useful for dodging weapons as well you risk making it somewhat uber.

I can see it is a skill with a wide variety of uses. I play Clockwork & Chivalry, where heavy armour isn't prevalent. One of the characters in my group is a flambouant cavalier. He wants to nimbly avoid attacks.

I wasn't going to simply equate Evade = Dodge. There needs to be a downside. Which was why I was asking for suggestions/house rules.

 

[Deleriad]

Why? Because you may not have a weapon. Because a dagger is not much use parrying a battleaxe.

Evading is disadvantageous. I am thinking of avoiding blows that does not involve loss of attacks.

I would play RAW as first (see above) because otherwise you may find that you make Evade too useful.

On the axe and dagger front what normally happens is that the person with Evade tries to run away (change range) or keeps evading until an incoming attack misses at which point he has a CA advantage and can either freely close or freely run away.

If you allow Evade to generate CMs (which as I say is not clear from the rulebook) then as soon as the axe attack misses you could try to Evade to get a CM such as disarm or change range to run away.

The rules create a situation where axe guy is chasing dagger guy around the room until dagger guy spots an opening. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Deleriad]

One of the characters in my group is a flambouant cavalier. He wants to nimbly avoid attacks.

I wasn't going to simply equate Evade = Dodge. There needs to be a downside. Which was why I was asking for suggestions/house rules.

I personally find that the no-attack on your next turn is the right 'downside.' What kinds of attack is he avoiding? If he has a rapier in C&C then parrying will avoid all damage from most 1h weapons anyway (I seem to recall it's a M weapon).

If he's being chased around by a Puritan with a Large stick then he can evade and on his action rather than simply sticking him with a rapier he can do things like throw candlesticks in the general direction of Mr Dull or roll under a chair. i.e. rather than making attack do something narrative that would give Mr Dull a negative penalty for the next attack. As soon as Mr Dull misses then he has an opening and can stick him with the pointy end.

Finally, remember if you haven't already that you can prepare an evade in advance so you don't end up wasting CAs doing nothing after a previous Evade.

Still and all, playing a swashbuckler does require a more thought than a mace and shield guy because you have to get good at understanding how the "combat action economy" works and you have to get good at using change range and so on. The plus side is that the swashbuckler can outmanoeuvre whole squads of guys who haven't trained their evade properly.

 

[Dan True]

Why? Because you may not have a weapon. Because a dagger is not much use parrying a battleaxe.

Evading is disadvantageous. I am thinking of avoiding blows that does not involve loss of attacks.
[/quote]
Well, then you evade. If you are forced to evade instead of parrying, it to me seems completely fair that you are punished by being at a disadvantage. Don't bring a dagger to a swordfight. Of course, only my opinion.

I play Clockwork & Chivalry, where heavy armour isn't prevalent. One of the characters in my group is a flambouant cavalier. He wants to nimbly avoid attacks.

Evade = Dodge. There needs to be a downside. Which was why I was asking for suggestions/house rules.

One way I can think of, is making a heroic ability that let's you evade witout suffering the drawback of not being able to attack. This will allow heroic and competent swashbucklers to dodge attacks, but only for so long (as they have magic points).

On the other hand you say yourself that there needs to be a downside - I quite like not being able to attack on the next CA as a downside, but some alternatives could be:

- Loss of damage on next strike
- Minus to combat style on next attack
- Loss of CM range or CMs on next attack: for example: "on your next attack after you dodge, you can only choose Unarmed CMs" or "on your next attack after you dodge, you can choose 1 CM less than usual".

- Dan

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Actually it's an interesting point as to whether Evade can generate CMs. That probably needs a statement from Pete or Loz as to whether Evade can generate CMs. I've always played that they can as it's not explicitly stated that they can't but the running text generally only refers to parries.

As written under the Evading section on p90:

If the winner of the Opposed Test achieves one or more levels of success over his opponent, the result of the roll may be modified by applicable Combat Manoeuvres as per normal combat.

I've stressed the word 'applicable' before anybody questions what types of CMs can be used if the evader wins. Meaning, use common sense.

 

[gran_orco]

Evading is second best to parrying - no attack can follow it, it is an opposed roll and no combat maneuvers are generated.

Actually it's an interesting point as to whether Evade can generate CMs. That probably needs a statement from Pete or Loz as to whether Evade can generate CMs.

What??? Page 90, Evading:
If the winner of the Opposed Test achieves one or more levels of
success over his opponent, the result of the roll may be modifi ed by
applicable Combat Manoeuvres as per normal combat.
So YES, the character evading can use manoeuvres if he wins.

EDIT: Pete has posted first -for 1 minute-.

 

[Da Boss]

Why? Parrying gives you the option of gaining CMs against your opponent, as dodge would still require a CA it would be wasted compared to a parry.

I also don't get what you mean, why isn't evade the same as dodge?

- Dan

Evade is running away - dodge is more subtle "step aside the blow". Evade can deal with multiple opponents - dodge would be per blow.

I must admit its something I miss from other BRP style games........ It would be both characterful and useful for unarmed combatants (or are not at all well catered for at present) - ie trained martial artists and such like. Uarmed combat is a bit of a mess - I am unsure how parrying works in a brawl when little armour is worn.

Goes back to flavour as well - Sometimes I'd rather just move aside and then strike back rather than parry - which would be equally effective at stopping being hurt - but sometimes less stylish.........

The prime issue I can see with allowing a dodge skill is that weapon length and size is irrelevant and so it has an immediate and too powerful advantage over all forms of parrying weapons.

I think it would have to be a whole seperate thing from the evade skill but thats a bit clunky......

 

[Dan True]

Evade is running away - dodge is more subtle "step aside the blow". Evade can deal with multiple opponents - dodge would be per blow.

Where do you get that from? Not that you don't have the right to play it like that, but that is not my understanding at all.

From p 90. " ... in these circumstances all the character can do is hurl himself to the floor, or dive behind cover tp escape the effect"
And p 91. "However, using evade as a melee defense involves giving ground or leaping aside, placing the defender at a disadvantage".

Also, Evade is also per blow... It even references to Parry in how it can be declared in advance.

So I understand evades as bascially what "dodge" is in the real world - you quickly duck/move away from a blow, moving any range from 20 cm to the side or leaping desperately out of the way. Regardless, your balance is ruined, which puts you at a disadvantage.


But, I can see the reason for changing the disadvantage (as mentioned above) for settings where swashbuckling is prominent - pirates or C&C.

- Dan

 

[Mongoose Pete]

On the axe and dagger front what normally happens is that the person with Evade tries to run away (change range) or keeps evading until an incoming attack misses at which point he has a CA advantage and can either freely close or freely run away.

Delariad has nailed it on the nose. In real life you are left with two options. You either try to withdraw and avoid engagement entirely... or you take a chance and jump into grappling range. Standing there and trying to bob and weave is effectively suicide.

I can't recall how many times I've re-iterated this, but swashbucklers don't defend themselves by dodging. Even in the movies they parry 95% of attacks. When they do dodge it is more for dramatic effect than a necessity - just as when someone is wounded, their opponent is gracious enough to let them recover from the potentially serious wound.

However these 'dodges' are effectively evades and the protagonist doesn't immediately counter-attack, but normally uses the moment to reposition themselves, regain balance or disengage completely.

Remember we are talking about 4-6 CAs occurring in a 5 second combat round here, so the evade is a very quick action, even if it does place you at a mechanical disadvantage. Its something you do in extremis, not as a natural part of sword fighting. YGMV of course.

If you are looking to emulate classical Errol Flynn movies, Scaramouche, the Three Musketeers take a look at the dozens of YouTube clips and see for yourself.

 

[Deleriad]

Actually it's an interesting point as to whether Evade can generate CMs. That probably needs a statement from Pete or Loz as to whether Evade can generate CMs. I've always played that they can as it's not explicitly stated that they can't but the running text generally only refers to parries.

As written under the Evading section on p90:

If the winner of the Opposed Test achieves one or more levels of success over his opponent, the result of the roll may be modified by applicable Combat Manoeuvres as per normal combat.

I've stressed the word 'applicable' before anybody questions what types of CMs can be used if the evader wins. Meaning, use common sense.

Ah good. I figured it had to be there somewhere and that I wasn't just going mad by playing that Evade generated CMs.

I could imagine a Swashbuckler Combat Style.

Swashbuckler (Rapier, Main Gauche, Pistol, hat, cape, *unarmoured*)
You can't use this style if your Armour Penalty is greater than 1. When you parry using this style you can treat your parrying weapon as if it were one size larger than normal due to your ability to deflect blows with a flourish). You can even parry with a hat and cape as if it were a Medium sized weapon though that doesn't get the size increase bonus. A gentleman never attacks with a hat or cape though.