Another look at damage and healing (and armour!)

[Klaus Kipling]

The way damage and armour interact has come under a lot if criticism, and at first I agreed with most of it, but on further reflection perhaps it's better than we first thought.

Firstly, what does damage actually mean in MGT?

The criticism seems based on the fact that armour values are quite puny, and even with good armour a character could take damage from even a lowly pistol hit. However, in MGT, not every point of damage is the same as the other.

Characters are not wounded until they take hits in two physical attributes. They are severely wounded when all 3 physical attributes take damage. As in combat damage comes off Endurance first, it's not until they've lost all their Endurance and take hits on their DEX or STR instead that they're injured.

So what does this mean to characters?

Severely wounded can be considered to be a torso hit, bad bleeding, broken limbs, several lesser wounds, or worse. It impacts on movement, and both STR and DEX will lose mods or gain penalties to reflect lesser capability. It is also hard to heal without surgery and a proper medic. Most likely END will be at 0, meaning a -3 to hits returned due to medical care, unless surgery can restore some points.

Wounded can be considered a limb hit or a bad cut, or a nasty but not life threatening blast of shrapnel. One active attribute will be affected, losing bonuses and making the character less capable in combat, or any physical task. Again, END is likely to be 0 but healing is a bit easier with rest.

When just Endurance has taken hits, what does this mean? Being winded? Light concussion? Bruising and pain? Flesh wounds? Minor cuts? Only the END mod is affected, so the more active stats of STR and DEX are unchanged - in combat capability is generally unaffected, though the character is more prone to fatigue. This END is recovered quite quickly, a 1D + END bonus per day. Even badly bruised characters (END 0) have a good chance at healing quickly, and a bit on medical care to start, could be right as rain in a couple of days. A bad beating? A fall without any more serious injury?

So my second point is: what does it actually feel like to be hit by rounds when wearing body armour? I've never been in combat, but surely that has to register somehow - you can't just shrug it off like a girly slap.

Has anyone here actually been hit while wearing body armour? All I have to go on is the telly, but there if someone takes a hit to their flak vest their knocked down and winded, probably bruised, maybe even a broken rib or two. Is this a realistic depiction?

So maybe a character hit by a pistol while wearing cloth should take a few END hits, to represent being knocked over, winded, bruised, etc. Several hits like this is going to injure a character eventually, just through accumulated pain.

So, maybe armour values aren't that wrong after all. I still might add a few points myself as a houserule, and will come up with more kinds of cloth at different tech levels (unless Mercenary is already dealing with this..?). But it seems that looking deeper into damage and healing that the MGT model is quite sophisticated. Anyway, that's my two-penneth.

 

[AKAramis]

Klaus:

Having been shot with 0-pen several times (.25acp... my field jacket bounced it one time, and my peacoat the others)... if feels like being punched. True, the round in question is quite anemic.

Having often been hit with large sticks swung with significant force while in armor... yes, you CAN shrug off most such blows.

A swing which will beak a 2x2 will not break bones through 16oz leather over 16 gage steel; it may or may not leave a bruise.

 

[Infojunky]

First off, this is a intelligent question that doesn't get asked enough, what does damage mean, what does it feel like? And Klaus I don't know. But I can give some personnel experience.

Has anyone here actually been hit while wearing body armour? All I have to go on is the telly, but there if someone takes a hit to their flak vest their knocked down and winded, probably bruised, maybe even a broken rib or two. Is this a realistic depiction?

It all depends, yes I have been shot, unfortunately several times, both with and without body armor. For that mater I have been cut badly in also.

But starting with getting hit in the armor, it sucks, it is like getting hit with a baseball or cricket bat. A shot to the trauma plate leaves a trauma plate sized bruise underneath, You notice it right away. As I said all I received where bruises, deep whole body bruises. the ricochet to the kidney had me peeing blood for a week also, but the doctor said that was part of the blunt trauma.

On the other hand being shot without armor is bad in a whole different way, the initial injury really didn't register, it didn't start to hurt until I stopped and looked at it. It didn't bleed that much, nor tear off the huge gobs of flesh that you see on those shows. As the wound was a through and through in my calf it didn't immediately slow me down, I walked down stairs and called for medical assistance, then i sat down, getting back on to it was a stone cold bitch, that is the point where I started beating my roommate.

As for being cut, generally it wasn't until the fights were over before they hurt. and generally the associated pain was less than one would expect. Less than the results most fist fights I have been in.

I hope this helps.

 

[Golan2072]

When just Endurance has taken hits, what does this mean? Being winded? Light concussion? Bruising and pain? Flesh wounds? Minor cuts? Only the END mod is affected, so the more active stats of STR and DEX are unchanged - in combat capability is generally unaffected, though the character is more prone to fatigue. This END is recovered quite quickly, a 1D + END bonus per day. Even badly bruised characters (END 0) have a good chance at healing quickly, and a bit on medical care to start, could be right as rain in a couple of days. A bad beating? A fall without any more serious injury?

According to p.75, in game-mechanic terms a character with damaged END is wounded and heals at the same rate as someone with two damaged characteristics (END+STR or END+DEX). I'd describe damage to END alone as flash wounds, minor cuts, bruises or a slight concussion based on the cause for that damage - a bit hurt, but nothing major. Damage to two characteristics would mean more significant light wounds, but still nothing life-threatening (unless the character has very, very low END and thus might still lose characteristic points due to low healing rolls). However, such light wounds still deplete the character's stamina, and make it easier for additional slight wounds to pose a serious threat.

So maybe a character hit by a pistol while wearing cloth should take a few END hits, to represent being knocked over, winded, bruised, etc. Several hits like this is going to injure a character eventually, just through accumulated pain.

The problem is that with the current armor levels it is very easy for a pistol or rifle shot to cause more damage than the average character has Endurance even if he's wearing armor.

And even with my armor house-rules, a slightly above-average (or with an Effect of 1 or more) pistol shot is going to cause some END damage to someone wearing a Flack Jacket; a slightly above-average rifle shot would cause some END damage to someone wearing Cloth. My armor only blocks badly-placed shots; good shots are still going to HURT (maximum pistol damage is 15, plus an Effect of 6 its 21, and with my Cloth armor of 10 that'll still cause 11 damage, enough to cause a serious wound if you're a bit weak...).

Higher physical characteristics probably mean that you have higher muscle mass and stronger (and more flexible bones) and thus a bit less likely to get broken bones from a hit to your armor...

 

[Sturn]

I've been playing around with a MGT damage house rule based on an old damage system of mine. Haven't got it all hashed out, but something else to consider.

Strength damage represents actual tissue damage. If STR reaches 0 you are dead.

Endurance damage represents stun or shock damage. If END reaches 0 you are unconscious.

Dexterity damage represents another sort of stun damage, paralyzing damage, limb wounds, or grappling holds. If DEX reaches 0 you can not move, but are conscious.

The biggest thing to consider would be how the damage is divided between the 3 characterisitcs. Player choice creates problems if you delve deeper. I'm considering that a player must allocate damage 5 points at a time as groups of damage (it can't all be spread out).

If you ever wanted to add hit location, such a damage system has some other benefits - head shots tend to do more End and Str damage, body shots more Str, and limb shots more Dex. You could say that a shot to a limb must allocate half of the damage to Dex, for example.

If you want a system where non-penetrating damage does have some results, you could add that it can't cause Str damage.

Some weapons, such as a stunner, might do only a combination of End/Dex damage.

Sorry, I rambled.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Ta everyone, especially Aramis and Infojunky. Don't envy you taking hits at all!

Sturn, Golan, I'm quite amenable to adding to armour rating (a bit). I'm just interested in the fact that just because armour prevents a shot penetrating it doesn't stop it hurting.

An rpg can only model RL combat only so well. It's interesting to hear that the blunt trauma of being hit while wearing body armour hurts more than a penetration wound. In fact, that is very logical. Never having been in combat, I have cut myself (and not just paper cuts!), and know that this hurts less than being hit (with a bat, or impaling yourself on a blunt railing, which hurts like a b**tard!), at least until you notice it.

Rpg damage can't really go that far in modeling RL situations, but the idea of being hit to me surely should have some kind of consequence, on average.

(BTW, yes, END recovers at the same rate whether 1 or 2 stats are affected, but it does state that a character is wounded if 2 stats have taken damage, not 1). I like the 3 stage damage distribution in MGT. It's certainly cleverer than most rpg models, and quite simple within the existing MGT damage system.

 

[SSWarlock]

So how do exceptional successes affect damage?

The book says (pg 50), "The character succeeds in an impressive and elegant fashion."

Huh. Oookay. :?

Does that mean damage is doubled? Armor (if any) is halved or ignored completely? The target is somersaulted through the air? A single pistol round ricochets around a room killing all the bad guys while leaving the good guys unscathed?

Anyone have an idea what the intent was?

This lack of detail is a bit irritating, especially when page 50 has some artwork which could have been reduced in size to allow some guidelines on the effects of exceptional successes on weapon damage.

 

[AKAmra]

So how do exceptional successes affect damage?

The book says (pg 50), "The character succeeds in an impressive and elegant fashion."

Huh. Oookay. :?

Does that mean damage is doubled? Armor (if any) is halved or ignored completely? The target is somersaulted through the air? A single pistol round ricochets around a room killing all the bad guys while leaving the good guys unscathed?

Anyone have an idea what the intent was?

This lack of detail is a bit irritating, especially when page 50 has some artwork which could have been reduced in size to allow some guidelines on the effects of exceptional successes on weapon damage.

Per RAW, Effect adds damage, so the benefit is built in - more damage. I don't think this is an omission, although it does open up the possibility for special effects other than increased damage in future supplements (called shots, reduced armor, etc). Or you could house rule in the options if you like.

 

[Golan2072]

So how do exceptional successes affect damage?

The book says (pg 50), "The character succeeds in an impressive and elegant fashion."

Huh. Oookay. :?

Does that mean damage is doubled? Armor (if any) is halved or ignored completely? The target is somersaulted through the air? A single pistol round ricochets around a room killing all the bad guys while leaving the good guys unscathed?

Anyone have an idea what the intent was?

Under the RAW, Effect is added to damage. That is, Effect 6 is +6 damage.

But it is very easy to house-rule that Effect 6 or more halves armor (round down). It might be quite a good house-rule to add to my increased armor ratings house-rules.

 

[SSWarlock]

Gah! I completely missed that little tidbit. Shame on me!

Thank you both for graciously pointing out that rule.

 

[apoc527]

I was reading about the combat system here and on CoTI (wow, there are some bitter individuals on CoTI--it's like they take the existence of another set of Trav rules personally and have made it their personal mission in life to denounce them...very weird--you'd think that they would be happy that their favorite game is popular enough to warrant another edition!).

People here seem to be fairly happy overall with the RAW for MGT. I know there are some minor things here and there and I've seen a lot of house rules floating around (but hey, Trav has traditionally been about the house rules, right?), but overall the reaction is very positive. When Mercenary comes out, I expect we'll see even more variation among weapons, which should prove very interesting.

What I want to know is this: are there any aspects of the RAW combat system that simply don't work? In other words, is there anything at all that most experienced people on these forums have already house ruled? If not, I'd say Mongoose did a very admirable job indeed! Thanks!

 

[charliebananas]

Under the RAW, Effect is added to damage. That is, Effect 6 is +6 damage.

But it is very easy to house-rule that Effect 6 or more halves armor (round down). It might be quite a good house-rule to add to my increased armor ratings house-rules.

Am I right that an effect of 6+ would also always do at least 1 point of damage?

 

[Myrm]

I was reading about the combat system here and on CoTI (wow, there are some bitter individuals on CoTI--it's like they take the existence of another set of Trav rules personally and have made it their personal mission in life to denounce them...very weird

Hmm, I havent looked at CoTI for about a year, but thats surprising since there were multiple versions being discussed on there for quite some time (I remember forums for the main T20, NE and 5th off hand plus all the discussion back to Classic and Megatraveller).

OTOH any set of forums is quite capable of having, hmmmm, shall we say 'local personalities' who have a tendency to jump and scream and shout a lot to the detriment of the board in question and make themselves visible above and beyond the level that their argument and their numbers should represent.

To the question at hand - Ive just got the main rulebook and yes the damage is 'moderately' lethal. But assuming the perfect average character of 777 physical stats. Pistol 3d6-3, 8 point average, 14 points with a stupendous shot of +6 effect or full damage on +6 effect is dead in one. So a really well aimed shot from a pistol will on average knock an average unarmoured person down in one shot by reducing 2 stats to 0, and kill in one potentially at full damage. Have I got the maths right there?

If so - to be honest I actually have little problem there - its pretty realistic. Its pretty scary, I agree. Its close to how I remember Classic Traveller from N years ago. Its consistent with the T20 version where the lifeblood system meant that a single shot from an autopistol could take the average joe down when unarmoured.

House Rules ways to keep scary, but reduce lethal damage with minimal effect on the system might include
1) Remove the effect bonus for damage?
2) Add stacking armour points for suitable cover?
3) Add the penalties to hit for range to the damage?

Traveller to me has always been a dangerous system where the person who wins is the one who is in cover, armoured and with the most accurate toys. Failing that bring the vehicle

 

[Golan2072]

This thread is very, very interesting, especially with Aramis' and Infojunky's real-life experience input...

Having been shot with 0-pen several times (.25acp... my field jacket bounced it one time, and my peacoat the others)... if feels like being punched. True, the round in question is quite anemic.

Having often been hit with large sticks swung with significant force while in armor... yes, you CAN shrug off most such blows.

A swing which will beak a 2x2 will not break bones through 16oz leather over 16 gage steel; it may or may not leave a bruise.

How many shots to the armor (i.e. bounced) do you think you could've endured?

 

[AKAramis]

From a .25 ACP? quite a few.

Then again, a .9mm ACP has 10x the energy and 4 times the area, and would go through that peacoat...

A great deal about how armor reacts depends upon the way the armor dissipates the energy. A half-cuirass would be FAR better protection than a standard 4x8" trauma plate... as it would put the same energy over about 9x the area. But, like the trauma plate, the kevlar is essential as well.