Another 5pt. Raid fleet (Centauri)

the reasoning is sound but the game balance is not.

for the price of a Primus you get 8AD of 25" beams with more damage

The ship is supposed to deal with small escorts, in which case 4AD is overkill, 3AD will still make it the best beam ship in the fleet at that level
 
I am compelled to agree with emporerpenguin. The Sulust (as it stands) is more of a siege weapon. Give it 3AD and it has a tactical use. 4AD and it *is* overkill...

I hate the Demos. Just wanted to put that in...

I feel like the Magnus is (like Lord David the Denied said) is a heavy escort. It has heavy primary and secondary weapons as well as wide arcs AND fighter support. Plus high armor gives it survivability compared to lighter ships... which will most likely attack it or whatever ship it is escorting.

A pair of Magnus' charging into a fleet I think could REALLY do some damage. Obviously this is only for larger games cause in 5 pt RAID games... it would just be a waste.
 
emperorpenguin said:
the reasoning is sound but the game balance is not.

for the price of a Primus you get 8AD of 25" beams with more damage

The ship is supposed to deal with small escorts, in which case 4AD is overkill, 3AD will still make it the best beam ship in the fleet at that level

Make that change and you have to nerf every raid ship, because two raid ships are basically always better than one battle ship. Two Sulusts makes a better one-trick pony beam attack than one Primus does. The same is usually true of battle ships being better in a pair than a single war choice. It's not always true, but it's generally the case.
 
I actually quite like Vorchans, and probably rate them higher then a lot of people here (But then I'm a big fan of the Hyperion too, so I might just be weird).

Vorchans are very, very good at moving really fast.and to use them well you need to make the most of this. Speed 14 and 2/45º turns make it one of the fastest and most manoeuverable units in the game. It also has a decent hull and some excellent weapons. The low damage is not really any different from any other skirmish ship (perhaps on the lower end of the range).

Vorchans need to be used in numbers. Singly they are very vulnrable and yeild poor results, but squadroned up in pairs and trios they begin to show how good they are. As for their use, with good set-up they are fast enough to be attacking the enemy fleet from the side in turn 2 or from the rear by turn 3. Use them like Drazi, All Power to Engines! and Come About! will be your friends.

5 extra damage will be way too much to add. I think they are about right as they are. Though adding Super AP back to their Plasma Accelerators will be worth a big grin.
 
oh please no!! not again with the 'sullust is not good enough with 3 AD beams' argument!

Ive used and had sullusts used on me with 3AD and theyre still on the good side of raid ships frankly (using the tourney lists) its not that 4AD is too good compared to battle etc but its just a bit too potent imo. I wouldnt go so far as to call it broken or anything and I certainly dont have a problem with it having 4AD but I DO think its more balanced with 3AD.

As comparison, how would people like it if the Chronos had 8AD of Rail guns? its only a small increase but I think most would agree that whilst this wouldnt render the ship utterly broken it would push it a bit too close to that line for comfort...

And LD the D, as youve said in the other thread about the primus it sounds to me like youve routinely had TERRIBLE luck with your battle laser rolls (which actually explains your (in my eyes) seemingly inexplicable 'the cenauri arent good enough' attitude).

As for the Vorchan, it could possibly do with a slight increase in firepower and or survivability but tbh its not too bad as it is. If you take ALOT of them they can work rather well actually (try 10 Vorchans at 5pt raid, it can be rather effective if used right)
 
oh before I forget though, the Demos I agree is rubbish for a raid level ship.

But its not alone in that respect, alomost every ship which mongoose has made a 'better varient of' and upped the PL has without exception, sucked huge piles of ass imho:

I refer you, gentelmen, by way of example to following specimins:

Command Omega
Command Hyperion
Whitestar II
G'Tal
Olympus Gunship

QED
 
the whitestar 2 isnt actually a bad upgrade now the whitestar itself is downgraded. the sullust is a sniper, thats it. it has a few secondaries but nothing to its rear which after an APTE or 2 you are usually into and then the sullust will need a come about just to get you in arc again. the hyperion has 4AD of beams, yes its boresighted but it also has 2 turns over the sullusts one, and its slightly slower so can do those turns quicker. then theres the fact a hyperion has a rear beam the same AD as most peoples raid ships front beams (not including the sullust) and all round fire, turreted anti fighter and a twin linked AP weapon for knife fighting. this makes it slightly better IMO. the thing the sullust needs is not less AD but maybe less damage, something like 28 instead 35 as thats approaching narn sort of areas.
 
I have a fairly rigid fleet organisation and tactical structure, which I really ought to be hit harder for, and the fact that I'm not really does indicate there might be a problem.
I don't believe the scissors, paper, stone argument- it's not that straightforward, bad fleet selection can make you lose to anybody. I do believe there is a sort of upper and lower division situation, one group of races whose success or failure against each other is largely determined by tactics (and/or dice), and a lower division, which they will beat a statistically significantly higher proportion of the time than they ought to.
I reckon the lower division consists of the League races (except maybe the Brakiri), the EA, the Drakh, Raiders and Vorlons, the Narn are borderline, top of the second division, the changes to the White Star might have pushed the ISA down into the second division.
Upper division consists of the Shadows (Tourney versions, which I may continue to use or run in parallel with the Armageddon stat) Dilgar, Minbari and Centauri.
Partly this is a gameplay artifact. It's far better to give than to recieve, especially when it comes to heavy weapons fire, and between medium firepower and a high ability to take damage, and high firepower and a mediocre ability to withstand it, I'll take the bigger zap every time.
I do reckon the Sulust is overgunned for it's position in the fleet, but to be honest I'd actually give it more, lighter dice- up it to 6AD and remove the Double Damage. That should make it more viable as an escort destroyer rather than an assassin. It's still capable at it's own level or lower, but can't go big game hunting any more.
 
Silvereye said:
5 extra damage will be way too much to add. I think they are about right as they are. Though adding Super AP back to their Plasma Accelerators will be worth a big grin.

Agreed, Centauri IMO should be fragile but have a bit much punch as compensation, I was really pleased when the Omega went up in damage making the Primus the most fragile of the big 4 cruisers
 
emperorpenguin said:
Silvereye said:
5 extra damage will be way too much to add. I think they are about right as they are. Though adding Super AP back to their Plasma Accelerators will be worth a big grin.

Agreed, Centauri IMO should be fragile but have a bit much punch as compensation, I was really pleased when the Omega went up in damage making the Primus the most fragile of the big 4 cruisers

Well I wasn't :wink: .

So 4 Vorchans can hold their own? Cause most of my strategy depends on them A) surviving or B) survining long enough for my heavy ships to get involved.
 
If you aim to come in from the side, or open a jump point well away from their fleet. A 14" (APTE at 22 1/2") move should get you into range pretty quickly with the minimum of flak, though you may crash through a fighter screen, most fighters will mot be able to keep up.

If 2 of my three Vorchans make it in to attack I'm usually happy. The mistake I found was actually trying to use them as a warship. They are just not equipped to survive in a melee.
 
Most of the assesments are right on.

Vorchan/Vochat/Vorchar do need about 5 more damage/crew.

Kutai/Demos/etc are mostly rubbish compared to their counterparts both in the fleet and across fleets.

Prefect does just need its beam chopped by one.

Tertius choose which weapon but lose a few AD.

Sulust needs to lose a die on the laser, and it is still a beast. (as for the hyperion comment - boresight (absoulutely huge), range (you have 30% more) damage/crew (even after Arm. you have 20% more)

Ripple
 
Back
Top