Ancients - Which way is the correct way to hit the target?

[Fin-man]

While I was at the King of the Jumpgate tournament in Sacramento yesterday, I came across a rules interpretation question that I had not considered before. My Centuari were trying to kill a Vorlon Destroyer, and I was doing what I thought was correct. Hull = 5, Super AP (for the beam weapon in question) takes the target number to 3. Since they are Ancients, the target number would be 4. (Beating their hull score.)

The Vorlon player said that, no, it was a target of 3, not 4. We looked it up in SFOS, and the following text was what I was reading to come to my conclusion:

Based on highly advanced bio-technology, Shadow vessels are organic creations and so do not have the same structure as other ships. Because of this, they take damage in a very different manner. Every successful attack on a Shadow vessel that beats its Hull score will cause damage, without the need to roll on the normal Damage table. Instead, roll on the Shadow Damage table. Page 105: SFOS

Based on highly advanced bio-technology, Vorlon ships are organic creations and so do not have the same structure as other ships. Because of this, they take damage in a very different manner. Every successful attack on a Vorlon vessel that beats its Hull score will cause damage, without the need to roll on the normal Damage table. Instead, roll on the Vorlon Damage table. Page 111: SFOS

Now, all of the other players there read the rule as needing to equal the hull score to get a hit. Where I play, we had always played it as you did need to beat the targets' hull score to get a hit. We played it for the tournament as you needed to equal the target’s hull score to get a hit.

Any discussion would be most welcome on how it is interpreted at your local area.

Fin-man

 

[lastbesthope]

In the quotes above 'beats' is bad wording. Rule BOok 1 of the ACTA box sets:

When Attack Dice are rolled, the resulting number on each dice is compared to the target’s Hull score. For every Attack Die that equals or beats the target’s Hull score, a hit has been scored. A roll of a 1 on an Attack Die is always a miss; a roll of a 6 is always a hit.

(What it doesn't say here but mentions somewhere else is that a roll of a 1 is always a miss, even with a Super AP weapon against a Hull 3)

So your target number against a Hull 5 ship with a Super AP weapon is 3 not 4.

And that's not an interpretation, that's the way it is :lol:

LBH
Amateur Rules Lawyer

EDIT : P.S. I didn't vote because of the potential confusing use of the term 'beat'

 

[Fin-man]

LBH,
Yes, that is what the rulebook says - for normal damage. However, the Ancients do not take damage as per the 'normal' rules. (Please read the quotes above from the SFOS book on the Ancients special rules.)

Since these are 'special rules', they would supercede the normal rules in book 1 of ACTA. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than, "And that's not an interpretation, that's the way it is." to convince me.

Fin-man

 

[Dywnarc]

Fin man makes a good point. You are closer to the develops then most of us so perhaps you are in a position to know that its "bad wording"

I have to admit I never noticed that before, but for people that are pickign up the rule book and playng byt he letter this is correct. The ancients have a special rule regarding how they take damage and the letter of the law for that rule is that you must beat there hull score.

A rule is poorly wrtieen indeed if one must extrapulate from a DIFFERENT book what is "really ment" by a rule.

I happen to think your interuptation is correct LBH, but the intial poster is right, it is in fact not clear enough to call it a closed case.

Although it would be pretty crazy if Shawdow war ships can only be hurt by AP weapons.

Hmm perhaps the Ancients ARE balanced and most of us have been playing them wrong?

Isn;tt here also a rule that 6's are always hits? so that even the shawdow war ships can get hit?

 

[H]

LBH,
Yes, that is what the rulebook says - for normal damage. However, the Ancients do not take damage as per the 'normal' rules. (Please read the quotes above from the SFOS book on the Ancients special rules.)

Since these are 'special rules', they would supercede the normal rules in book 1 of ACTA. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than, "And that's not an interpretation, that's the way it is." to convince me.

Fin-man

Um how about the standard rules used for every fleet mean hitting a hull score means you have hit the ship, if you were to make it different for the elder races, you would just give them a higher hull score to matc hthe standard rules. Mongoose books are renowend for typos, and not overly great rules clarifications, because they are a smallish cosy company without mega resources. I mean really, if you wanted to pick up on everything like this instead of using common sense you could propbably rip the entire game to pieces and confuse the hell out of anyone. Also I believe LBH is a playtester (but could be wrong) which would imply that really he does know what the rules are.

 

[Fin-man]

Dywnarc,
The Ancients (including shadow ships) can be hurt - a roll of a '6' is always a hit. The main contention is whether the special rules for damage resistance were written to make the Ancient ships more survivable - but they are just not being widely utilized.

Um how about the standard rules used for every fleet mean hitting a hull score means you have hit the ship, if you were to make it different for the elder races, you would just give them a higher hull score to match the standard rules. Mongoose books are renowend for typos, and not overly great rules clarifications, because they are a smallish cosy company without mega resources. I mean really, if you wanted to pick up on everything like this instead of using common sense you could propbably rip the entire game to pieces and confuse the hell out of anyone. Also I believe LBH is a playtester (but could be wrong) which would imply that really he does know what the rules are.

Hiffano,
I mean no disrespect to LBH. (or anyone else for that matter) What I am trying to figure out is how people are playing the rule across the ACTA spectrum. I disagree with your assertion that Mongoose would have just made the hull scores higher - I believe they were trying to give a different 'feel' to the Ancients, and this is how they chose to do it. It is not a matter of common sense - it is reading the rulebook and trying to intrepret the rules as they are written.

There have been many complaints about the Shadows and Vorlons being weak - perhaps the majority of players have been doing it incorrectly, which would make a huge difference to the way the races play. I understand that Mongoose can (and does) make mistakes, but the same wording that I quoted in SFOS is the exact same wording for Ancients in ACTA: Book 2, page 82: [Emphasis is mine]

Damage Resistance
Based on highly advanced bio-technology, Shadow and Vorlon vessels are organic creations and so do not have the same structure as other ships. Because of this, they take damage in a very different manner. Every successful attack on a Shadow or Vorlon vessel that beats its Hull score will cause damage, without the need to roll on the normal Damage table. Instead, roll on the Damage table below.

D6 Effect
1 Solid Hit: 1 point of Damage
2 Solid Hit: 2 points of Damage
3 Solid Hit: 3 points of Damage
4 Solid Hit: 4 points of Damage
5 Solid Hit: 5 points of Damage
6 Solid Hit: 6 points of Damage
7 Critical Hit: D6+6 points of Damage

All Damage is multiplied by Double and Triple Damage weapons as usual. Note that Precise weapons still add a bonus of +1 to rolls on this table and thus they are the only weapons that can score a critical hit.

So, it does not appear to be a typo in the SFOS book, as the wording is the same from the ACTA: Book 2.

Also, just for the record, I don't want to be a rules lawyer - I want to make sure we're all playing the same way.

Thank You,
Fin-man

 

[Greg Smith]

I am a playtester (one of the five chosen by Matt Sprange) and a tournament winner (which isn't brag, just to add weight to my arguement).

Shadows' & Vorlons' hull scores work the same way as standard hull scores. My main contention is: If they worked differently, Shadow Ships would never have a Hull score of 6.

BTW 'Ancients' will have a whole new meaning soon.

 

[H]

Hmm, I offer apologies, i was a little short...

I don't "think" that a change in how hits happen really offers much in the way of flavour, and it seems a little pointless, however your comments about the wording are of course correct. However there have been many rumblings about the ancients, and Matt and some of the other guys from Mongoose do come on here and would "hopefully" have corrected the interpretation of hits.
I think you will find that pretty much everyone does use 5 as the actual target num,ber on a vorlon HC for example, even though we all want it to be 6!!

 

[Fin-man]

Hiffano,
No offense was taken - we all have our views, and they do differ, from time to time.

Anyway, I posted this same question in the Rulemasters forum, and here is Matt's answer - hot off the press...

Good catch - you need to equal it, the same as any other ship.

So, it looks like LBH, Greg, and Hiffano were right.

So, we can abandon this thread now. Thanks for eveyone's input.

Fin-man

 

[Dywnarc]

I kind of thought they were right. And it was the way I have always played it anyways.

But this was an important dissuccion cause it sounds like you ran across someone that played it the other way.

Glad that one got cleared up fast.

 

[Locutus9956]

I had always played it as equal but I might actually try out the 'beat it' rule as a house rule until armageddon comes out (ancients die too easily imho anyway )

 

[lastbesthope]

LBH,
Yes, that is what the rulebook says - for normal damage. However, the Ancients do not take damage as per the 'normal' rules. (Please read the quotes above from the SFOS book on the Ancients special rules.)

The 'Ancients' have special rules for taking damage, yes, but not for rolling against their hullscore, and that's what you were asking for :lol:

Since these are 'special rules', they would supercede the normal rules in book 1 of ACTA. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than, "And that's not an interpretation, that's the way it is." to convince me.

Fin-man

And that's not an interpretation, that's the way it is

Wasn't what I was using to convince you, the quote above that I took from Rule Book 1 was supposed to convince you. My comment was to reinforce that hte rules are what they are, no interpretations :lol:

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

Also I believe LBH is a playtester (but could be wrong) which would imply that really he does know what the rules are.

Not on the official playtesting lists, I di help playtest one of the original drafts of SFOS though. but I am a dedicated amateur rules lawter, and my interpretations and rules lawyering is right almost all the time.

:lol:

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

So, it looks like LBH, Greg, and Hiffano were right.

So, we can abandon this thread now. Thanks for eveyone's input.

Fin-man

You're welcome, and sorry if I seemed a little short in my above post. It was not intended.

LBH