Ancient Rome or ancient Greece...

[The King]

Many kingdoms presented by Howard did exist a long time ago (i.e. Turan was a kingdom near Persia).
Concerning Hyborian heavy cavalry, I never read anything about knighthood with a dubbing ritual and many nobles from the kingdoms were no fighters but rather leaving in the court.

 

[Etepete]

Technically nothing! People of the Balack Circle sends Conan to ancinet India, Frost Giant's Daughter drops him in the middle of Norse mythology, Black Collosus has him defending a crusader kingdom from chariot-driving Egyptians and Zulu spearmen and Beyond the Black River has him fighting injuns in upstate New York (or maybe its the Ohio river valley)..

True, but hosting a campaign I always find I need some kind of framework for the visualisations of the world around the characthers. So disparate eras must mold into one convention of dress, technology and science. In my case, dark ages, antiquity and fantasy conspire to achieve this.

 

[Damien]

You know, it's funny... with the rather fervent responses my little comment got, you'd think I came in here, peed on a copy of the Conan core book and stepped on a puppy's head.

So disparate eras must mold into one convention of dress, technology and science. In my case, dark ages, antiquity and fantasy conspire to achieve this.

This is pretty much exactly my point.

Concerning Hyborian heavy cavalry, I never read anything about knighthood with a dubbing ritual and many nobles from the kingdoms were no fighters but rather leaving in the court.

Note: I didn't say Hyboria uses the exact same conventions as medieval Europe. But it certainly has knights of a sort. The Black Dragons are a good example of this.

Held only unto themselves, the Black Dragons could theoretically fit into any timeline. They could be Alexanders cavalry, for instance.

But mix their existance with plate armour and an abundance of Feudal societies and to me.. that makes them a close approximation of European knights.

The Hyrkanians, if anything, resemble Mongols -- 13th century.


Even just reading the gaming books -- it appears even Vincent (I may be wrong on this) notes the importance of cavalry in most societies - which is a convention of the medieval period, before which infantry predominated the battlefield with only very small groups of cavalry operating on only specific commands.

The equipment available is medieval. Many of the governments are medieval. Tactics seem to be medieval. Dress, even, often seems medieval.

The majority of Hyboria immediately reminds me of real medieval history. There are certainly LATER-era concepts (Zingara is certainly, at least, late medieval) and earlier-era concepts (Stygia has plenty of ancient-world concepts in it, although I'd still say it also is a fit for medieval southern Egypt in a lot of ways).

But all fantasy, as I said before, has different eras designed into it, which doesn't change the majority. To use the same example from earlier -- Middle-earth is no LESS Migration-period just because the Crown of Gondor was ancient Egyptian in style, or because the Numenoreans were clearly based on pseudo-Greek Atlanteans.


Anyone is free to disagree of course. How -you- see the world is your business. I'm just saying that's how -I- see it.

 

[bradius]

The party has been in Messantia for a little while now. I've been portraying it as a ancient Greecian society. People recline at tables, greek style food, sweet wines and music. The use of marble and columns in architecture. People dress in tunics and robes. I haven't had to get into the merchant houses too much yet, but if I do, it will be along a more Venitian/Italian Renaissance theme. I also have a bit of ancient Roman theme too (Gladiator games, togas).

 

[Etepete]

The party has been in Messantia for a little while now. I've been portraying it as a ancient Greecian society. People recline at tables, greek style food, sweet wines and music. The use of marble and columns in architecture. People dress in tunics and robes. I haven't had to get into the merchant houses too much yet, but if I do, it will be along a more Venitian/Italian Renaissance theme. I also have a bit of ancient Roman theme too (Gladiator games, togas).

I described Messantia pretty ambiguosly. Stress on some hallmark buildings, like the Dome of the Sea, and most of all the Bazaar. I think the feel ended up more oriental than anything else, but definitely greek too. Hardy cretan-style fishermen, corrupt florentine-style merchants and loads of foreigners, mainly shemites. I think that putting people in tunics and robes is excellent, not as in your face as putting them in togas. Can't remember exactly how I described people, but pretty basic clothing that could be any period.

 

[Etepete]

Note: I didn't say Hyboria uses the exact same conventions as medieval Europe. But it certainly has knights of a sort. The Black Dragons are a good example of this.

Held only unto themselves, the Black Dragons could theoretically fit into any timeline. They could be Alexanders cavalry, for instance.

But mix their existance with plate armour and an abundance of Feudal societies and to me.. that makes them a close approximation of European knights.

All right, It's quite believeable that the Black Dragons where inspired by medieval knighthood. But I wouldn't be all that certain. REH lived and wrote in a time and a place where I think antiquity and the middle ages wheren't as conceptually divided. In the aftermath of national romanticism, where old germanic and some roman/greek drama had a renaissance (again..) through medieval intermediates (both writers and painters), I think many people might have for instance imagined Alexanders Comrades in full plate.

And feudal societies? Do you base that on the existance of barons? Barons might not be one of them, but many feudal titles, like Duke (dux) or Count (Comites) where originally mililtary titles of the roman empire. An empire which has had local governors and prefects for it's entire imperial period without being feudal, going on into the byzantine empire and its Themes. So maybe the title baron is just a title denoting a military commander of a prefecture?

I just don't get a very medieval feel from the books. I think REH just tried to get across a feel of age.

The Hyrkanians, if anything, resemble Mongols -- 13th century.

There are many steppe-nations throughout history: Persians, Xiung-nu, Hunns, Sarmatians, Skythians and so on.

Even just reading the gaming books -- it appears even Vincent (I may be wrong on this) notes the importance of cavalry in most societies - which is a convention of the medieval period, before which infantry predominated the battlefield with only very small groups of cavalry operating on only specific commands.

Point taken, but this is a matter of degree. Horsemen have dominated society in many eras.

The majority of Hyboria immediately reminds me of real medieval history. There are certainly LATER-era concepts (Zingara is certainly, at least, late medieval) and earlier-era concepts (Stygia has plenty of ancient-world concepts in it, although I'd still say it also is a fit for medieval southern Egypt in a lot of ways).

Well, many of these countries have an ethnic rather than chronological basis. Like shem or stygia or hyrkania. Aquilonia and the Hyborian kingdoms are mainly western. Aquilonia and Nemedia has an imperial feel, and I'd do them as a mix of the roman empire and Charlemagnes france.

 

[Colonel_Jenkins]

I just noticed that the Hyborian Age wiki is wrong about the Cimmerians, however.

Howard didn't make the Cimmerians up. They were an actual barbarian culture, living in the southern steppes of Russia until they were displaced by the Scythians. They migrated south and invaded the great kingdom of Lydia, killing king Gyges (the one reputed to own a magic ring of invisibility) and conquering Sardis (which was quite a shock to the world at the time). They were eventually driven back, and it is unknown where they eventually settled (either Armenia or the near the mouth of the Danube, depending on who you ask).

The relationship of the Cimmerians (a rather mysterious barbarian culture whose homeland was described by Homer as being dismal and foggy) to the "Cymri" of Wales is a purely fanciful link... perhaps Howard himself dreamed that one up, to give the Cimmerians the Celtic angle he put on them. But he definitely must have understood the Cimmerians as the ancient barbarians of Greek lore, since he borrows Homer's description of their homeland.

 

[count_zero]

The initial question in itself was a bit flawed... What part (and era) of ancient Greece and Rome? Was it Greece of the city states? If yes, was it Sparta and its militant view or Athenian democracy? Perhaps it was the northern savage parts of Thrace? Or maybe the light-hearted Ionian states with their proximity to Persia and the middle east. Could it be the Thessalians with their excellent medium horse or the heavy horse of Phillip (his name is "Lover of Horses" anyways) and Alexander? Maybe the Black Dragons were modelled along the lines of the famous "Companions" of Alexander. Take my word (and I am Greek so I might know better), it all depends on what you want to portray.

God in the Bowl was set in Corinthia if I am not mistaken... Most of the names were Roman-sounding. People used chariots which were definitely Roman... In the rulebook (Gazetteer section) Corinthia is hilly, with separate city-states at each other throats... Armies are mostly infantry. Early Roman perhaps, before the penninsula was unified. Then the Road of Kings present Corinthia with cavalry playing an important role like in most Hyborian kingdoms. Go figure!

What it all boils down to, is that you should do what you pretty much like. If you want to rerun the disaster at Teutonwald with Picts and Aquilonians, go right ahead. If you want to do this with Cimmerians and Aquilonians, knock yourself out. If you want some Hyrkanians to be more like Sarmatians (really good heavy cavalry) instead of horse-archers like the Huns, just do it. I somehow doubt that Vincent or other people from Mongoose will show up at your place and knock you about like a red-headed stepchild because your view of Howard's world is different than theirs. As long as you have consistency, your players won't know either.

 

[Etepete]

The initial question in itself was a bit flawed... What part (and era) of ancient Greece and Rome?

Very true. I think that most hyborian age civilisations has at least some aspect of classic antiquity in them. Digging into the almost limitless litterature that excists on the rough area of civilisation that corresponds to the kingdom you're running your campaign in is going to yield up a treasuretrove of material, often in the most unexpected places.

Armies are mostly infantry. Early Roman perhaps, before the penninsula was unified. Then the Road of Kings present Corinthia with cavalry playing an important role like in most Hyborian kingdoms. Go figure!

Well, cavalry was rather important in early republican rome, wasn't it? Where else does the Equites/knights class come from?

At the end of the day though, REH didn't have a comprehensive grasp of classic history, at least not our modern historical findings obviously, and he was writing to entertain, it's pulp action after all, and I think we can allow ourself quite a lot of poetical license.

 

[argo]

At the end of the day though, REH didn't have a comprehensive grasp of classic history, at least not our modern historical findings obviously, and he was writing to entertain, it's pulp action after all, and I think we can allow ourself quite a lot of poetical license.

Quoted for truth. And well said too.