An "Adult" themed thread about Cimmerians

[Supplement Four]

If you object to this kind of thing, then please just ignore this thread. I know "gritty realism" isn't for everybody.

What I'm curious about is the dichotomy in Cimmerians. They raid and pillage, but do they rape, pillage and plunder? Or, do they just pillage and plunder.

Conan has such a "thing" about taking a women against her will. I was wondering if that's just personal for Conan, or if all Cimmerians share that sentiment.

And, I know there are a couple of stories, as in the beginning of Red Nails, where Conan acts as if he's capable of rape but holds himself back. That is a Howard story. In Offutt's Conan The Mercenary, there is a stunning scene where Conan would have raped the Temptress in the story had she not been so willing (she was raped later by the bad guys). It started as rape, but the target didn't resist.

Are slaves held to a different standard?

What about Cimmerian clans who raid each other?




Please keep the conversation on this civil. I know it's a hot button with some gamers. I've been down that road before.

But, if you've got something constructive to add to this topic, I'd like to hear it.

 

[djd]

In Conan the Defender - which I just happen to be reading - Conan leaves a female pick-pocket to be raped by a bunch of men in an Inn. I think whatever Conan's own morality it can't be seen as representing Cimmerian society on a larger scale. Again, if you look at it in a Dark Age historical context then the taking of captives as slaves by Celts and Anglo Saxons was common practice - until Christianity made it less acceptable. Violence aginst women was likely to be common place but is unlikely to be institutionalised - some individuals do it and some don't. No different to modern warfare in that respect.

 

[Jacek]

In Offutt's Conan The Mercenary, there is a stunning scene where Conan would have raped the Temptress in the story had she not been so willing (she was raped later by the bad guys). It started as rape, but the target didn't resist.

A similar scene of a would-be rape is depicted by Offut (again) in The Sword of Skelos. This one, along with Conan The Mercenary, show that Conan actually was a rapist (only the women he chose weren't too insistent on the form of the intercourse), while in most other stories it is suggested that the Cimmerian felt much enough respect for women not to take any of them by force (not that he had to as in most cases it was them that insisted).

 

[Jacek]

Now that I'm back from doing what has previously interrupted my answering to the topic:

What I'm curious about is the dichotomy in Cimmerians. They raid and pillage, but do they rape, pillage and plunder? Or, do they just pillage and plunder.

My opinion is they don't... in general. Women in the Cimmerian culture are generally respected, which attitude I believe would extend on all females no matter their nationality. While on a raid, it is possible that some warriors use the opportunities the victory brings but I'd limit such behaviors mainly to those who don't have a woman of their own at home. However, they sometimes go out to get wives, so in a way they do rape even if they don't actually on the raid.

 

[Supplement Four]

A similar scene of a would-be rape is depicted by Offut (again) in The Sword of Skelos.

It might have been Skelos, then. I read the trilogy back-to-back a year or two ago. I've forgotten which book the scene occurs, but I remember Conan crossing the Great Desert with his bud. The Temptress and her new lacky meet them (and she's using sex to control the lacky). The lacky kills Conan's bud, and Conan kills the lacky. Then, the takes the Temptress down, throws her on the ground, and takes her, with all the blood absorbing into the sand.

It was a heck of a scene.

And, I read the same scene--I think it must have been Skelos now--in Savage Sword of Conan, because I remember how powerful it was--even more powerful than in the book.

The exact same thing happens, except, in Savage Sword, the "camera" moves to view his dead bud's riderless horse. His friendship with this man completely forgotten in his lust for this woman.

I thought the writing and the moment were quite deep (pardon the pun!) for Conan adventure tale.

 

[Supplement Four]

While on a raid, it is possible that some warriors use the opportunities the victory brings but I'd limit such behaviors mainly to those who don't have a woman of their own at home.

So...if your village was raided by another Cimmerian clan, and women were taken, you're thinking that they'll probably be taken as slaves (or wives, if they're "lucky"), but one can expect them not to be raped.

 

[Supplement Four]

As I say a very thin line???

Intriguing line.

 

[Jacek]

While on a raid, it is possible that some warriors use the opportunities the victory brings but I'd limit such behaviors mainly to those who don't have a woman of their own at home.

So...if your village was raided by another Cimmerian clan, and women were taken, you're thinking that they'll probably be taken as slaves (or wives, if they're "lucky"), but one can expect them not to be raped.

IF the women WERE KIDNAPPED, it would probably be inevitable. But if the band came for cattle for instance, they'd rather pacify (in blood if needed) all the resistance present, then run out with what they came for before help came. Why waste time and risk everything?

Cimmerian Women are Warrioress, fighting to the death by their Man's side, it could be a thin line between survival and an expected way of acceptance of things, ie Cimmerian Women would rip a Man heart out his chest, but if she thought she was taken by a better Man, she would bow to his victory over her.

I'd sooner expect that from "civilized" women and call it "opportunism" or "disloyalty".

 

[DooMJake]

Rape is one of the "Capital punishments" in the Cimmeria Rulebook if I recall correctly, but it seems that does not count when conquering another tribe, as somewhere there was an Cimmerian insult that says something along those lines: "I will take your wife and daughter as my personal whores"

Perhaps someone who is conquered is counted as "willing"?
OR the "Capital punishments" only count inside ones clan?

 

[Malcadon]

In Howard's yarns, Conan never raped anyone and even said outright that he never forced himself on a woman, but did come close in The Frost Giant's Daughter (Gods of the North). Of course, all of the sexual violence was hinted or implied do to the times, but the latter works (that often reworked Howard's old works) was not so overt about it. Hell, the whole "innocent girl tempered into a mighty amazon warrior by a bloody, savage gang-rape" was a popular trope back in in the the 70's! (both Red Sonja and Janissa started their warrior careers of as rape-fodder)

A lot of people tend to underrate Conan as an ugly, stupid, socially-inept brute, but form how Howard wrote him, his was quite ruggedly hansom, highly keen, and surprisingly charismatic. Women seem drawn to him, and they feel quite safe and comfortable in his tree-trunk arms. That is, he dont need to force himself on anyone -- women come and go, he can more then impress the ladies. He has also been known to save women without expecting anything in return (but would make subtle jokes about it).

As for dichotomy in Cimmeria, its quite a savage land, and I dont doubt that Cimmerians engage in rape, but one has to consider how tough their women are. If Conan's mom could slaughter a Viking-styled army while in labor, what chance does a rude Cimmerian stand when he would just get his balls ripped-off and forced down is throat so he would choke to death on them? (or worse! :shock This is where outsourcing and white-slavery comes in... :wink:

 

[djd]

Howard writes Conan as a sort of testosterone fueled fantasy figure. Working on the assumption that no woman can resist a big muscular brute... This is more about Howard's own fantasy I think (and speaking as someone with a passion for bodybuilding - I know that more women are put off by big muscles than attracted by them :lol: ). There's also a strong (and somewhat uncomfortable) sense of even when a woman says 'no' to him she means 'yes'. Plus the idea that he doesn't need to force himself on anyone becasue obviously they all want him...

It's very much of it's time so I don't mean to be too critical of Howard. Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan is a slightly more genteel and galant character in comparison - although the Tarzan books contain a deal more overt racism. Again though, it's of its time and therefore you take it for what it is to some degree.