am i missing something *(space combat)

[sigma957]

a delta V raider has an offence of 4 and armour 7,

a civilian transport has an offence of 3 and armour 15

in order for the raiders to do one space of damage to the transport 7 deltaV need to form a wing all shoot and all hit, (assuming no criticals)

Anything less than 7 Deltas neednt bother turning up as they cant actually do anything without a critical and anything less than 5 just plain cant hurt it even with a critical,

So why is everyone scared of raiders and calling B5??? well okay the transport cant hurt the raiders at all full stop even on a critical it bounces off the armour on the delta, that said why bother giving the transport a gun that serves no use at all as it is totally ineffective

so this means if 7 raiders attack a transport the starfuries only need to kill 1 raider to neuter the raiders, *who wont be able to hurt the armour 14 fury without 5hits and a crit

And just a single whitestar is death itself to anything less than a fleet of raiders who wont be able to scratch the paintjob

or have i failed to see something that reveals what ive missed and makes the fights a little less pointless

 

[Picaboo]

I asked the same question a little while ago in a thread called B52E Space combat. Even if no official answer from mongoose was given, there is opinions and suggestions to fix the problem.

It bugs me too...a lot... :evil:

 

[Aramanthus]

I saw your original post and the responses. I also noticed Mongoose reversed a couple of ships. Being of course the Omega and the Nova. Since the Omega is far bigger than the Nova.

 

[frobisher]

I saw your original post and the responses. I also noticed Mongoose reversed a couple of ships. Being of course the Omega and the Nova. Since the Omega is far bigger than the Nova.

You're thinking ACTA which is wrong on this count

The RPG versions are more akin to the AOG B5 Wars versions, where the Nova outguns the Omega by a considerable margin.

 

[Aramanthus]

Excuse me! The Nova from the series is smaller than the Omega. Therefore they (Being Mongoose) have mixed up the stats for the RPG! And the Babylon 5 Wars sizes were wrong! The Omega is far bigger than the Nova! (I will reverse those twos stats!) Simply because they are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sigma957]

but back to my point, the fighters just dont work at all in any kind of logic for instance the rapid fire guns on the starfury apart from giving it a second set of weapons incase of a hit on the weapons it serves no use as being a totally ineffective weapon compared to the primary,

im not saying the whole system is rubbish and we should have refunds and public executions but it would be nice if someone came down and said, 'okay it dosnt quite work out does it try this its better and keeps the feel we were after'

 

[Aramanthus]

I agree totally with you Sigma!

 

[frobisher]

Excuse me! The Nova from the series is smaller than the Omega. Therefore they (Being Mongoose) have mixed up the stats for the RPG! And the Babylon 5 Wars sizes were wrong! The Omega is far bigger than the Nova! (I will reverse those twos stats!) Simply because they are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry - got confused there - I thought you were refering to the combat stats...

B5 Wars did have the Omega as the ship with the larger profile/ramming factor.

 

[frobisher]

but back to my point, the fighters just dont work at all in any kind of logic for instance the rapid fire guns on the starfury apart from giving it a second set of weapons incase of a hit on the weapons it serves no use as being a totally ineffective weapon compared to the primary,

I think they are only there because the (de-canonised) B5 Security Manual labled them as guns. They never fired in the series under all the kinds of circumstances where (if they had a use) they should.

im not saying the whole system is rubbish and we should have refunds and public executions but it would be nice if someone came down and said, 'okay it dosnt quite work out does it try this its better and keeps the feel we were after'

I suspect that the starship combat system wasn't that heavily playtested with the units pointed out, or if it was, just using the simplified version which diminishes the effect of armour considerably.

 

[Mick]

Our group has found that adding what you roll to hit the target to the offence of the attack work out nicely, and also make a attack roll to added to the interceptor “intercept" strength as well.

 

[Vortex]

I think simply ruling that a critical always deals 1 damage even if armor reduces it to 0 would be quick and simple while removing the cases where victory is impossible for one side. It would remain improbable but at least there would be hope...

 

[Madbiologist]

I came up with a few house rules that helped alliviate some of these problems. So far they seem to work really well and even makes dog fighters and fighter wings more interesting to play.

If anyone is interested I would be happy to post them up here.

 

[sigma957]

you post that and expect us not to be a little bit interested, continue, please continue

 

[Aramanthus]

Yes, please post away!

 

[Madbiologist]

*chuckles* I posted that while at work.

I will put each of them separately.

Armour Degradation:
Each second hit in a barrage degrades the armour of a ship by 1, this does not include beam weapons as they have their own armour damage. Ships of Medium size and smaller also take one armour damage from the first non-beam weapon hit in a barrage. Armour degradation is applied after the offensive value has been applied to the ship.

Ex: a barrage composed of 5 hits (4 pulse and 1 beam) will degenerate an armour by the amout of the beam weapon and 2 from the rest of the barrage. If it was 5 pulse weapons, it would only 2 damage armour. Against a medium or smaller craft it will do 3 armour damage.

Reason: As illustrated before Raiders can barely threaten a Starfury or a transport ship, while a transport ship can never harm a raider or anything else. This rule helps mitigate that. Also big armoured ships can eventually be brought down if it is pecked on long enough. However since it takes a long time for a Capitol ship to go down from even a fighter wing, and some fighters have really long life spans even with this rule, I came up with these two.

Vital Hits:
Targeting Run and Lock On insures a structural hit each per barrage. So both will insure 2 structural hits. This is not bonus, but a minimum, so if a ship hits for 3 structure, it will only do 3 structural damage. This also applies to the whole barrage only and not each hit inside one, a wing of fighters is considered as 1 barrage so if a full attack from a capitol ship.

Reason: This now allows fighter wings to threaten big ships, and makes dogfights more interesting then a mere offensive overwhelm or barage overfire. Limiting this to the barrage and not to the individual weapon prevents doing too much structural damage with small weapons on a huge ship with large armour. This does not stop a wing from breaking up and attacking the ship solo each, but this tactic is not recomanded as a wing has better chances to survive, succeed, and to eventually overwhelm the ships armour. If an ace decides to go solo, well then it is an ace so it is okay if he get heroic. This also allows a highly skills pilot to disable certain systems on a ship without needing very high Offensive Value.

Special Note: This is the other reason why larger ships do not get armour degrades from 1 hit only. To encourage wing formations in Fighter crafts. Most large ship battles involve other large ships, so it is better for fighters to work together and offer support to their own capitol ship.

Dogfighting:
While making a Targeting Run, the successful ship can avoid one of the fire arcs of the targeted ship. Also you can not perform a targeting run on a ship that has you as its mark.

Reason: This makes fighters with high Handling, those with Pivot, and any ship with Turrets or more then one firing arc have a strong edge. Also it allows for a ship to avoid that really big beam cannon that some bored capitol ship commander might be tempted to fire at a solo fighter. This gives some survivablity for a skilled pilot (not much as a capitol ship has plenty of weapons in numerous arcs to slap the pesky fighter). It also makes dog fights interesting as another ship with a forward only weapon will have to break off the targeting run before it can fire (it has several options in doing so, pivot ships have a really good one).

This makes the targeting run action a defensive one as much as it is an offensive one. The second part is obvious, I find it awkward two ships do a targeting run on each other, seems awkward to me. Perhaps that is what the rules implied but still makes the targeting run not such a great manuever, a bonus to attack and lock on is nice, but most people would rather take their chances and have that extra attack. Also if the ships weapons are not strong enough to break armour, why even perform "he is on your six!" action. I think this variant with the other one before makes a targeting run tempting and makes the defender want to break it off.

***

I am also working with house rules for energy mines to put them more in line with what we seen in other B5 Space wargames and a way to make Interceptors a little more useful against large barrages. Also I am tweaking Brace for Impact and the way structural damage is applied to make space battles more interesting. More on this as I have time to test them out in my campaign.

 

[Aramanthus]

Thanks Madbiologist! I'm also posting while at work.

 

[Madbiologist]

Here is a few others.

Improved Brace for Impact:
As long as a hit location has 2 boxes remaining or more, 1 structure will remain before excess damage goes to the next location. If a section is down to its last structure (or it only had 1 Structure to begin with), then the structure can be destroyed normally. Also, when another location recieves the excess damage the new location recieves the benefit of both the standard DR rule and this additional rule.

Reason: If each section does get the DR 1 or there is only a mere DR 1 for the whole attack is not clear in the book, I make it clear that it does. Also it helps protect a ship from experiencing total shutdown of a component, but still allows a components to be destroyed or ships that only have 1 box for a component to suffer from damage normally. This change makes this tactic very useful for capitol ship (does not really change things that much for fighters). I wanted Capitol ships to have a method to protect themselves a little better and made this manuever become this staple protection.

Spread Out the Damage:
This optional varient should only be used on ships that have more than 3 structure boxes per hit location, otherwise apply the damage normally. Whenever a ship takes 3 or more structural damage, 2 hit locations is rolled. The first one recieves half the damage round up, the second one recieve the rest (half damage round down). Naturally a called shot to a specific system recieves the full damage as it would normally.

Reason: I felt that too easily a lucky shot could take down the Control or Engine of a large ship in one hit. Also all to often entire systems were totally trounched while the rest of the ship came out unharmed. I feel these should happen less often randomly and only really happen on called shots. This new rule spreads out the hurt, and still leaves a small chance the same system gets hit twice and takes the full damage.

Better Energy Mines (Edited):
This weapon keeps its full OV when fired in a Barrage, and hits all nearby ships (all ships in the Centre if fired into it, all fighters in a squadron, or escorts). However due to the low accuracy of such weapons, solo crafts recieve a +4 to their DV against this attack (as usual Shadow Ships are not solo crafts).

Reason: Energy mines both in the show and other B5 games were always AoE weapons, I felt they should keep that aspect. But then realised it made them fighter killers, a little too much. Adding the bonus to Solo craft DV helps mitigate that I believe.

(Edit) I just read my Ship Builder's Guide and the fleet/wing AoE was in it. Now that is coincidence. I might still use my variant that adds a little more oumph to them and in the same time not to easily slaughter solo crafts (since the average Energy Mine would even kill a Starfury in one shot, making it hit less often is a good mitagation for that).

***

I still feel Interceptors are a little underpowered against barrages, also the rules in the book do not make sense on one account (it mentions failing the Gunnery roll and getting a penalty on the counter attack roll. While no mention of a Gunnery roll is made in the description, aside for the counter attack roll). So that whole "On a failure" is a rather moot point. I am thinking out of a few possible options for this one. Post them up as I figure something out.

 

[sigma957]

actually having just got ships of the galaxy i now find a starfury with offence 12 vs a delta v with armour 7 and internal spaces 4 will now instantly kill the raider, the raider and transport are still somewhat standoff but at least the fury can do its job

 

[Madbiologist]

Aye... but the problem some people had is how the Delta Raider can not threaten the Starfury unless an entire wing hits one Starfury and they each hit, and even then. In the show we did see Starfury taking it, but it was not to the point of nul threat.

From what the book shows a Starfury can easily solo an army of raiders... and though the show hints to Ivanova doing it... the way the book puts it anyone could have done it (if I recall the show made it look like it was an impressive feat, one that Ivanova is not tempted to do again).

 

[Eryx]

The new ship to ship combat rules are the one area od 2nd edition that my group can't get to work right. The straight offence of some ships just doesn't work. Take the basic Starfury, to even damage itself it needs to hit with every weapon it has. Damage should have been random rather than fixed. That might have helped make it work.