Am I gaining anything by these changes?

[Utgardloki]

I've taken another look at my character generation rules for Runequest Modern, and am wondering if I am wandering "too far" from the MRQ ruleset. So far the differences between RQ - Modern and MRQ are the following:

1. I made up my own size/weight/height tables. (Size is determined by volume, which for humans would be weight. Height is given as a suggestion, but a short, fat person could have a higher Size than a tall, thin person.) I have not seen an official MRQ size table, and the Call of Cthulhu table does not define all the size values, and thus require interpolation. I could use the RQ3 tables, but my own tables make more sense to me. The size of certain creatures, especially very large creatures, might need to be adjusted.

2. Instead of "Combat Actions" I calculate a number of "Reactions" equal to (DEX + POW)/10, round up. I've described an alternate initiative system that I intend to use to determine the number of combat actions allowed in a round; the number of reactions is still needed, however.

3. I extended the Damage Modifier table to STR + SIZ values as high as 200. The assumptions I made were as follows: a.) the DM advances as +2D12, +4D6, +4D8, .. , +4D12, +8D6, +8D8, ..; b.) After STR + SIZ > 100, advancement only occurs for every 20 points instead of for every 10 points. If I need to extend the table further, I'll probably have advancement every 40 points for values > 200.

4. The Strike Rank calculation was changed to include Size, and to make lower Strike Rank values better. The new formula is Strike Rank = 10 + SIZ - DEX.

5. Movement is determined by (STR + DEX)/5. This means the average movement will be 4 meters/yards, but individuals may differ.

6. Advantages are available to starting characters. Some advantages may only be taken at character creation. (My concept for the campaign is based rather heavily on the concept of intrinsic advantages for PCs.)

7. Skills may be specialized by adding two skills together if both apply, e.g., Driving and Drive Automobile.

8. Literacy is made a separate skill (Read Alphabet) from Speak Language. PCs are assumed to be able to read their native language at a fluency of (INT * 5)%. This is not a default skill level; it is assumed that the PCs have spent a lifetime reading their native language and are quite proficient in it.

The changes to Strike Rank and Combat Actions seem to be the most likely to be changed back. But now that I have a chance to put things together, I'd like to see how far apart my "snowperson" is drifting from everybody else's "snowpeople".

 

[The King]

You didn't mention the Hero Points which enable you to purchase legendary abilities.

 

[simonh]

1. I made up my own size/weight/height tables.

RQ3 had these, but I've never used such tables, or needed to use their results at any point in any RPG I've ever played. What are they for?

2. Instead of "Combat Actions" .....

The initiative/action system in MRQ seems workable enough to me, so personally I don't see any great advantage to reworking it. A mater of taste I suppose. In such cases, the question to ask is, are the changes really important enough to cover the cost associated with teaching you're audience the new mechanics?

3. I extended the Damage Modifier table to STR + SIZ values as high as 200.

Since I can't imagine many mega-dragons turning up in the average RQ Modern game, how useful is this?

4. The Strike Rank calculation was changed to include Size, and to make lower Strike Rank values better. The new formula is Strike Rank = 10 + SIZ - DEX.

5. Movement is determined by (STR + DEX)/5. This means the average movement will be 4 meters/yards, but individuals may differ.

Since a lot of RQ modern combat will be gunplay, I'd have though factoring in SIZ would either be really silly, or require calculating two initiative values, one for melee and another for gunplay. Have you though this through?

6. Advantages are available to starting characters.

Personally I dislike advantages in RQ type games. About 90% of the suggested ads/disads I've seen suggested here are either already covered by the rules one way or another, or could be covered by minor rules tweaks. The other 10% are really either spells or Legendary Abilities.

I can see a case for giving starting characters a Legendary Ability at campaign start - we've all seen films or read novels about otherwise ordinary people with extraordinary abilities, but such things generally are beyond the scope of minor advantages. Do you actualy need this in the standard RQ Modern rules, or are they really just special character generation procedures for that campaign?

7. Skills may be specialized by adding two skills together if both apply, e.g., Driving and Drive Automobile.

Obviously scope for potential abuse, but I have seen this work in other games and toyed with the idea myself so I believe it can work so long as you have good mechanisms for coping with high aggregate skill values.

8. Literacy is made a separate skill (Read Alphabet) from Speak Language.

Very sensible, especially for archaeologist characters who may be able to read some ancient languages for which the spoken language is lost. Isn't this already the case in MRQ though?

 

[Exubae]

2. Instead of "Combat Actions"

Don't like the core rules either - trashed the MRQ rules and everyone get 2 CA but may spend HP to purchase Legendary Ability that allows more actions.

8. Literacy is made a separate skill (Read Alphabet) from Speak Language.

Migrated this back in as well, if a character learns the skill we allow aroll to increase both written and spoken form a single increase.

 

[Halfbat]

1. I made up my own size/weight/height tables.

Lovely for interest, (though see the RQ3 ones) but the only use I've had for actual weight/height is when characters are walking through low-roofed areas or are carrying others... and even then a ratio of SIZ works pretty well as an ENC adjuster or measure of volume.

2. Instead of "Combat Actions" I calculate a number of "Reactions" equal to (DEX + POW)/10, round up. I've described an alternate initiative system that I intend to use to determine the number of combat actions allowed in a round; the number of reactions is still needed, however.
4. The Strike Rank calculation was changed to include Size, and to make lower Strike Rank values better. The new formula is Strike Rank = 10 + SIZ - DEX.

Not sure where you're going here as this seems a big change from the MRQ combat setup and initiative/SR: more detail is needed.

I'd take care in adjusting SR unless there is a very specific reason for doing so. Using INT and DEX as a measure of reaction times works pretty well, especially in a RQ modern set-up, as it builds in both anticipation and the physical skills to react to a situation. If bulk is to be a penalty to reaction times then I'd suggest adding a modifier and SIZ on top of the standard SR calculation (INT and DEX) rather than replacing either.

5. Movement is determined by (STR + DEX)/5. This means the average movement will be 4 meters/yards, but individuals may differ.

If you wish to vary speed you may like to look at SIZ and innate differences a bit more carefully. Under the (STR+DEX)/5 system an elephant (DEX 10, STR 45+) would be considerably faster at 11m than a cheetah (DEX 19, STR 9?) at 5m and a giant panda (STR 18, DEX 9?) slightly faster than a racing greyhound (STR 10?, DEX 15).

6. Advantages are available to starting characters. Some advantages may only be taken at character creation. (My concept for the campaign is based rather heavily on the concept of intrinsic advantages for PCs.)

That's very much a personal campaign choice, though not necessarily one which fits with the more adaptive and flexible general RQ ethos (except for innate racial/species differences, of course).

8. Literacy is made a separate skill (Read Alphabet) from Speak Language.

Whilst there is an overhead in the "Read Alphabet()" skill in matching alphabets to languages, it does seem a way of tracking situations where alphabet would be important (archaeology, alien encounters, Stargate). In practice, though, most formal learning nowadays includes knowledge of the script (e.g. learning Russian/Cyrillic or Modern Greek/Greek if a Latin alphabet user) or variants of the script (cidilla, umlaut, etc, for English-speakers) or even different pronunciation from the written script (e.g. Sidhe, Niamh, d'oh vs l'eau). Perhaps the ability to read could be tracked simply as the cost of one or more skill increases depending on complexity of the script.

Hope it helps, and best of luck.

 

[Utgardloki]

Size/Weight

Lovely for interest, (though see the RQ3 ones) but the only use I've had for actual weight/height is when characters are walking through low-roofed areas or are carrying others... and even then a ratio of SIZ works pretty well as an ENC adjuster or measure of volume.

My disatisfaction with the current Call of Cthulhu/Runequest size/weight tables is that they do not give a clear visual of the character. What's the sense of being a Size 14 character if you don't know what a Size 14 character looks like. With the height/weight tables, you can see whether you are a Sylvester Stallone or a Hulk Hogan.

This is also useful for statting NPCs. The tables tell me what Size a Miss America contestant or a star wrestler should be. I can also easily determine the Size for an elephant or dinosaur or 15 foot tall giant.

I can see I will also need a Mass value. Mass would be the same as Size for most creatures, but robots, golems, and other creatures/objects much denser or much less dense than normal would have Mass values much different than their Size values.

Combat Actions/Strike Rank

The reasons I have for changing these are as follows:

1. Include Power in the number of combat reactions.

2. Include Size in initiative calculations -- giving an advantage to smaller guys.

3. Use a system where Initiative is a skill which can be increased by training. I could also make Strike Rank a pseudo-skill which is used to break ties in initiative. (This would allow a large character to train for fast reflexes if he desired.) Making Initiative a skill just seemed to go more with the flow of the Runequest game whereby if you succeed at the initiative you can go first, otherwise you have to wait.

My initiative system works regardless of how Combat Actions and Strike Rank are calculated, except that the number of CAs you get is really determined by your Initiative roll, not by the Combat Action calculation. So the changes to CA and SR calculations is really a matter of style: do I want small guys to routinely be able to out-init lumbering brutes? Do I want to use Power as part of routine combat, given that spellcasting may be a very minor part of an adventure? I think the answer to both these questions is Yes.

Movement

I will have to assume that different species will have a modifier to the Movement calculations. So a strong cheetah will be faster than a weak cheetah, but a weak cheetah would still be faster than a strong elephant because they get different movement modifiers.

It occurs to me that I can retain the current system of stat'ing out the average movement for each species (humans at 4, e.g.), and use STR + DEX to calculate a movement modifier that gets multiplied by the species average. As a GM, I can use and print the standard stats, but just add a formula for each species as it becomes necessary to compute a variance. Elephants might have the formula (DEX + STR)/18. Cheetah could have (DEX + STR)/4.

Extending the tables

This was done as a matter of principle, as much as anything else. Also, when I was typing up the players' notes, there was room to extend the table up to 200 STR+SIZ, so I thought why not?

This game happens to have Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, and Captain Marvel as NPCs, so I don't know how far I will need to tables to go. It's a wierd game.

 

[simonh]

I can see I will also need a Mass value.

You've lost me, this is a completely new game system.

2. Include Size in initiative calculations -- giving an advantage to smaller guys.

It doesn't work that way, bigger guys have a longer reach. Also you haven't addressed my point about using SIZ for initiative in gunplay.

This game happens to have Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, and Captain Marvel as NPCs, so I don't know how far I will need to tables to go. It's a wierd game.

That's RuneQuest Supers, not RuneQuest Modern.

Also, really lost me on the per-species formulae for movement rates. This is going way over my complexity threshold.

 

[canology]

Movement

I will have to assume that different species will have a modifier to the Movement calculations. So a strong cheetah will be faster than a weak cheetah, but a weak cheetah would still be faster than a strong elephant because they get different movement modifiers.

It occurs to me that I can retain the current system of stat'ing out the average movement for each species (humans at 4, e.g.), and use STR + DEX to calculate a movement modifier that gets multiplied by the species average. As a GM, I can use and print the standard stats, but just add a formula for each species as it becomes necessary to compute a variance. Elephants might have the formula (DEX + STR)/18. Cheetah could have (DEX + STR)/4.

I like that idea. The fact that all members of a species had the exact same movement kind of bothered me, but that seems a nice and elegant fix.
My complexity threshold seems to be fairly high...

I also like Height/Weight tables. When I started converting my game world from GURPS to MRQ having a Ht/Wt table allowed me to easily figure the SIZ for all my various races based off their height and weight.

 

[Yoda300]

Mass Value:
Try 6 kg per point of SIZ. Derive the height from it (+1m for boys, +90 cm for women, very roughly, so SIZ 12 is 72 kg and 1m72). Then change the weight if you the PC to be skinny or overweight.
For non humanoid, be careful when you try to build an equivalence. I suspect the writers to decide the average SIZ of creature with no preset rules. So the relation between the numbers and mass value is probably not linear.

Init. rules:
I'm a bit confused here. To attain your objectives, why not make a different SR score for magic, range combat and close combat. The latter should definitively have SIZ as an asset and not a hindrance. Think of your mock fight with children or women.

 

[Utgardloki]

Actually, Mass is just a simple addition that works exactly as Size, and for a normal character Mass and Size will be the same.

Where Mass comes in is if an opponent is much denser or much less dense than normal, e.g., if fighting an iron golem. For many purposes, the Size of the iron golem would be used, but for other purposes, Mass makes more sense. The Mass of an iron golem (or anything else) would simply be the Size of a "normally constituted" creature of the same mass.

As for size in initiative, what I was thinking is that a larger creature would have a harder time swinging all its bulk around. I could allow for a "Large and In Charge" reaction which would prevent a smaller creature from closing into combat with a larger creature.

I could have separate initiatives for guns and magic, but in all cases, the question is how long it takes for all that bulk to get into position to shoot, perform the somantic components, etc, so it is probably not really worth it to have three different strike ranks.

My plan for initiative is to use an Initiative skill to determine who goes first, with Current Effective Strike Rank being used to break ties. Current Effective Strike Rank can simply be Strike Rank plus 2D6, so for normal humans, Size will not make much of a difference unless there is a distinct Size/Dexterity imbalance. But you'll probably get a shot or two at Mr. Dinosaur while he brings his massive jaws to bear on the problem of swallowing you whole.

 

[Exubae]

Utgardloki, you might want to check out Bloodquest the cheepee MRQ modern suppliment on drivethru.
Its cheap and its got a couple of novel ideas (especially their idea for very high skills)- its only 14 pages long but for the price you can't argue.
Bu there is nothing in it you probably couldn't put together in a week end - but I'm idle so I got a copy.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I've taken another look at my character generation rules for Runequest Modern, and am wondering if I am wandering "too far" from the MRQ ruleset. So far the differences between RQ - Modern and MRQ are the following:

If it makes you happy, then its not too far

4. The Strike Rank calculation was changed to include Size, and to make lower Strike Rank values better. The new formula is Strike Rank = 10 + SIZ - DEX.

The quirk would occur for actions where size isnt really any modifier, for example, firing a gun, or any mental or magically based action.
I'd rather use something like the average of dex and int

5. Movement is determined by (STR + DEX)/5. This means the average movement will be 4 meters/yards, but individuals may differ.

Great!

6. Advantages are available to starting characters. Some advantages may only be taken at character creation. (My concept for the campaign is based rather heavily on the concept of intrinsic advantages for PCs.)

I cant stand that stuff, but its a group thing. If your players like this, then I think its a great idea

 

[Utgardloki]

One possibility might be to calculate Strike Rank as normal, but to allow for skills characters could use against larger or smaller creatures. For example, a larger creature could use a "Large and In Charge" maneaver to prevent a smaller opponent from moving into a "threatened area". A smaller creature could use a "Quick and Nimble" to get the initiative against a larger creature.

Another possibility would be to make Strike Rank = POW + DEX - SIZ or Strike Rank = POW + DEX - 1/2 SIZ. This gives the big guys two chances to overcome the disadvantages of great bulk. An the "Large and In Charge" manuever still works to keep small guys away.

 

[Banned Beetle]

Another possibility would be to make Strike Rank = POW + DEX - SIZ or Strike Rank = POW + DEX - 1/2 SIZ. This gives the big guys two chances to overcome the disadvantages of great bulk. An the "Large and In Charge" manuever still works to keep small guys away.

Why is POW brought into the equation? And why is a reach advantage a negative thing?

Trif.

 

[Utgardloki]

I guess since I can't seem to explain the reason for changing Strike Rank, I should use the MRQ rulebook calculations.

Strike my changes to Strike Rank calculations.

My changes still include POW to calculate the number of combat reactions. This is because I see POW as relating to luck, which plays a part in combat. I don't see that as a major change, however.

 

[soltakss]

8. Literacy is made a separate skill (Read Alphabet) from Speak Language. PCs are assumed to be able to read their native language at a fluency of (INT * 5)%. This is not a default skill level; it is assumed that the PCs have spent a lifetime reading their native language and are quite proficient in it.

This is one of my bugbears, unfortunately.

This isn't how literacy works, in my experience.

I can speak and read/write English reasonably well. I can also understand French and Spanish, although less well than I used to be able to. I can speak and read/write rudimentary Russian.

So, I would get Read (Latin Alphabet) and Read (Cyrillic Alphabet), all well and good. I can also read the extended Cyrillic characters that are used in Tartar and Bashkir, so given a text in Tartar or Bashkir, I can make a good stab at reading and pronouncing the words. However, can I actually understand Tartar and Bashkir? No, apart from "Hello", "Thank you", "Goodbye" and a few swear words (*).

So, even though I have Read (Cyrillic Alphabet), it doesn't actually help me Read/Write Bashkir, even though I can Read/Write Russian. Since the Bashkir language uses Cyrillic, having Read (Cyrillic Laphabet) should allow me to read Cyrilic Languages.

Now, I can use my knowledge of Russian to make sense of some written Slavic langauges, for instance SerboCroat, Polish or Czech, using Read (Cyrillic Alphabet) or Read (Latin Alphabet), but really I am using my Read/Write Russian for SerboCroat and Speak Russian combined with Latin Alphabet to read Polish or Czech.

Similarly, I can make a bit of sense of written Italian using my Read Spanish, but it has nothing really to do with my Read (Latin Alphabet).

So, personally, I think that having Speak (Language) and Read/Write (Language) is the best way to go.

I know that RQM has (Language) as a skill, with literacy either assumed or absent, but that is too rough for my tastes.

I can see the argument for (Language) and Read (Alphabet), so if I have Russian 30%, Read Cyrillic Alphabet 40% and Read Latin Alphabet 90% then I could perhaps be able to read Polish at 20% (Minimum of Russian - 10% and Read Latin Alphabet), but I am not comfortable with the idea.

Also, how hard is it to read an alphabet? There are around 60 characters in extended Cyrillic and if you know how they are pronounced (not that easy when you have sounds you have never heard before) then you can pronounce almost any Cyrillic-based language, it only takes a few weeks. That is a world away from actually being able to read those languages.

Anyway, enough of my attempt to thrreadjack, back to RQModern.

(*) Mainly body parts ....
Kutak-bash (Dickhead)
ini-ene-bategei (Literally get back into your mother's {birthing-orifice}) - (go away!)
Bateg is the female equivalent to Kutak (as in the above expression)
Kit! - Shoo!
Kit Aler! - Get Lost

Apologies for offending any Bashkir speakers (or maybe Turkish speakers) on the forum.

Those are the ones my wife uses at me when she is cross. She also uses Russian and English ones, to the point where she ran out of swearwords in three languages and resorted to calling me "Tractor" and "Combine", at which point the argument dissolved in a set of giggles.

 

[Utgardloki]

This isn't how literacy works, in my experience.

I can speak and read/write English reasonably well. I can also understand French and Spanish, although less well than I used to be able to. I can speak and read/write rudimentary Russian.

So, I would get Read (Latin Alphabet) and Read (Cyrillic Alphabet), all well and good. I can also read the extended Cyrillic characters that are used in Tartar and Bashkir, so given a text in Tartar or Bashkir, I can make a good stab at reading and pronouncing the words. However, can I actually understand Tartar and Bashkir? No, apart from "Hello", "Thank you", "Goodbye" and a few swear words (*).

I think you are right. I should have Read (Language). If two languages share an alphabet or have a similar alphabet, a character might be able to try to puzzle out some things, but perhaps this should be done on a case-by-case basis.

I can't think of a problem with Read (Language) as a separate skill from Speak (Language), especially with notations that may allow, for example, a person who can read Cantonese to also read Mandarin even if he can't speak Mandarin. (At least, I've read and been told that the eight major "Chinese" languages look the same on paper.)

In a similar vein, a person who is really fluent in English may be able to puzzle out some meaning from reading latin language, perhaps at -60% fluency or so, because many of the words are spelled the same even though they are pronounced differently. But this kind of detail requires evaluation of how closely similar languages resemble each other.