Alternative to Sorcery XP costs?

[Phil]

Hi, this is my first post here so go easy on me .

I've never been particulary fond of using XP as a tool for magical effects in d20 - I can understand it's use as a balancer in D&D for making permanent items and for very powerful spells like Wish and Miracle but when reading the Summoning spells in Conan, even the low 25 or 50 XP cost seems a tad on the harsh side for spells that only last a few minutes as without any long term benefit it will put Summoners behind everyone else XP wise.

In addition, NPCs (at least IMC) are rarely given XP totals - so they won't be penalised at all for casting Summoning Spells before they are (generally) killed by the PCs.

So, instead of an XP cost, what are peoples opinions on doing temporary Characteristic damage - probably CON as this tends to be the most debilitating in a combat situation (when Summoning spells will often be used) - as in the d20 version of Call of Cthulhu?

The question then becomes how much CON damage to inflict - I was thinking 2 points per 25 XP as this will always have an effect on Hitpoints, Saving Throws etc.

This would mean that NPC Sorcerers would have to consider whether it is worth casting a Summoning when the PCs are beating down the door - as they will weaken themselves - and still provides a nasty (albeit temporary) disadvantage to casting Summoning Spells.

Anyway, what do people think?

Phil

 

[Iron_Chef]

The problem with CoC d20's "corrupt" spellcasting system is that ability score damage makes for a lot of extra math. Otherwise, I love it, as it lets anyone cast spells, regardless of class. The limiter in that system is that there is no spellcasting class, and the GM tightly controls player access to magic, with most PCs probably having no desire to go insane or drain their life forces to learn and cast such forbidden, alien magic.

My advice, in keeping with the rules established for more powerful summonings (such as greater demonic pact) in Conan, is not to level an XP cost or ability score cost, but to make it a monetary cost. It costs 2,000 sp to summon up a demon prince. So, make the lesser summonings cost 25-50sp/HD of the summoned creature. That's easy, penalizes the sorcerer's pocketbook, and ensures that only the richest wizards will be summoning creatures willy-nilly. Most PC sorcerers will never have gobs of cash to finance summoned hordes, so that's a balancing device. It's also an in-game explanation unto itself: "I'd summon more beasts, my friends, but I do not have an unlimited purse with which to purchase more of the potions and powders the incantations require. The ingredients are expensive to buy and dangerous to acquire in the wild." 8)

 

[Phil]

I see where you are coming but I dislike using money as a balancing effect by itself - I feel that there should always be some in-game cost other than money as there is always an exception to the rule - ie. the Sorcerer who effectively does have unlimited cash .

As for the comment on extra math, personally, I've never found temporary ability damage to be a lot of extra work. For example, a 10th level Scholar who cast Summon Demon expends 50XP under the standard rules. If you replace that with 4 points of CON then he suffers a -2 penalty to all CON based d20 rolls (Concentration and Fort Saves) and loses 20 hitpoints (2 per level) at the end of the spell -which seems a pretty nasty situation.

Perhaps a compromise situation where a caster can choose to take the CON damage (hence making spells like this available to the poorer Sorcerers) or seek out an extremely rare component (perhaps worth 1000 or 10,000 x the XP cost) if you are immensely rich - but still meaning that if you catch the Sorcerer away from his laboratory he can still cast the nasty Summons spell...

But it is all personal. I was more wondering whether you guys thought that the 2 CON per 25 XP was a reasonable substitute - regardless on whether you think money is better or whether you think that ability damage is a lot of extra work.

 

[Bailywolf]

This is what I'm doing to ballance out ditching XP costs:

1) Ditch XP costs.

2) Mighty Spells require a Fate point to use, as do any spells with permenanty effects (or XP costs greater than 100).

3) Increasue the Casting Time on all Summoning spells by one unit of time upwards- rounds to minutes, minutes to hours, but leave hours alone. A Casting time of 1 round for Summon Beast is way to low...but the XP cost is absurd.



Fate Points are there to regulate dramatic license and major player-driven events... for srocerers, this is casting the big whammy spells, which by their nature are dramatic and rare events. Fate points do a good job of tracking this kind of limitation outside the normal constraints of XP accumulation and character advancement...



-B

 

[Jason Durall]

This would mean that NPC Sorcerers would have to consider whether it is worth casting a Summoning when the PCs are beating down the door - as they will weaken themselves - and still provides a nasty (albeit temporary) disadvantage to casting Summoning Spells.

While this is indeed an interesting and worthwhile solution, it is not necessarily the best solution for the Conan RPG. Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings... if anything, they become briefly stronger. Emulation of the pulp heroic sword and sorcery genre is primary with the Conan RPG, and generally, that means that sorcery is not the way to power for player-characters.

The monetary solution (having spells cost exorbitant amounts to cost) is also not a real solution, as it doesn't really limit NPC prior expenditures, does it? I mean, no mechanics or guidelines are in place for what sorts of finances a NPC sorcerer might have, so who's to say what is too much for them to have spent on prior summonings?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the XP costs. If I had a player who argued passionately about it, I might let them use the suggest Fate Point cost instead, which seems pretty reasonable, and be judicious about how I awarded them (but I wouldn't do both XP and FPs).

 

[Anonymous]

This would mean that NPC Sorcerers would have to consider whether it is worth casting a Summoning when the PCs are beating down the door - as they will weaken themselves - and still provides a nasty (albeit temporary) disadvantage to casting Summoning Spells.

While this is indeed an interesting and worthwhile solution, it is not necessarily the best solution for the Conan RPG. Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings... if anything, they become briefly stronger. Emulation of the pulp heroic sword and sorcery genre is primary with the Conan RPG, and generally, that means that sorcery is not the way to power for player-characters.

The monetary solution (having spells cost exorbitant amounts to cost) is also not a real solution, as it doesn't really limit NPC prior expenditures, does it? I mean, no mechanics or guidelines are in place for what sorts of finances a NPC sorcerer might have, so who's to say what is too much for them to have spent on prior summonings?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the XP costs. If I had a player who argued passionately about it, I might let them use the suggest Fate Point cost instead, which seems pretty reasonable, and be judicious about how I awarded them (but I wouldn't do both XP and FPs).

You say that "Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings", but aren't XP costs just another form of weakening?

 

[Judge Walker]

I must have missed something, I went thrugh the Sorcery section last night and could not find one spell that required an XP component. Could someone point one out to me?

 

[slaughterj]

This would mean that NPC Sorcerers would have to consider whether it is worth casting a Summoning when the PCs are beating down the door - as they will weaken themselves - and still provides a nasty (albeit temporary) disadvantage to casting Summoning Spells.

While this is indeed an interesting and worthwhile solution, it is not necessarily the best solution for the Conan RPG. Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings... if anything, they become briefly stronger. Emulation of the pulp heroic sword and sorcery genre is primary with the Conan RPG, and generally, that means that sorcery is not the way to power for player-characters.

The monetary solution (having spells cost exorbitant amounts to cost) is also not a real solution, as it doesn't really limit NPC prior expenditures, does it? I mean, no mechanics or guidelines are in place for what sorts of finances a NPC sorcerer might have, so who's to say what is too much for them to have spent on prior summonings?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the XP costs. If I had a player who argued passionately about it, I might let them use the suggest Fate Point cost instead, which seems pretty reasonable, and be judicious about how I awarded them (but I wouldn't do both XP and FPs).

You say that "Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings", but aren't XP costs just another form of weakening?

Dammit, that was me!

 

[slaughterj]

I must have missed something, I went thrugh the Sorcery section last night and could not find one spell that required an XP component. Could someone point one out to me?

P213, 25/50xp for summon beast, continues on through p.215's spells
P225, 50xp/HD of demon, same for elemental

 

[Jason Durall]

You say that "Nowhere in the source material do sorcerers become weakened by their summonings", but aren't XP costs just another form of weakening?

Not really, since XP expenditure does not cause loss of levels. It only means that a character is a little slower in increasing levels than others, who do their dirty deeds themselves.

And I am specifically talking about weakening in the form of loss of Con, HP, or some other physical drain.

That's why I think that Fate Point expenditure is probably the best alternative.

 

[Phil]

My major problem with using XP costs is that

1) If a PC sorcerer goes has just gone up a level, chances are he suddenly can't cast a spell eg. Summon Animal, that he was able to cast the day before because he can't expend XP without dropping a level.

2) That NPCs are not limited by this penalty at all because they generally don't have XP - just a level. Obviously this is easy enough to remedy but it shouldn't need to be.

Having said that I don't know how casting spells effects the caster - I haven't read any Conan in years and even then it wasn't much. I am now looking to lay my hands on copies - I was originally after the Conan system for a homebrew world I started designing under RuneQuest - although now I want to use Conan as is!

Also, after reading the spells in more detail last night, I have revised my opinion on ability damage - a spell like Summon Elemental could cost up to 40 CON by my equation yesterday (2 points per 25 XP)! Even with the heroic stats of Conan characters this is a bit over the top.

I have therefore been thinking of revising this in favour of doing standard HP damage at the rate of 1 per 25 XP.

This means using Summon Animal to summon a Small Animal costs a measly 1 HP but casting Summon Elemental to summon a 20 HD elemental would cost 40 HP, certainly enough to make a Sorcerer think twice about casting the spell when the heroes are right outside the door .

Changing the casting time might also be worth while, although I think I'd allow it as an option. For every increase in time reduce the cost of casting the spell - ie. using a ritual makes it easier and less damaging - the ritual takes the place of the HP damage in the spell but I think you can get a really impressive scene with the HP damage...

You burst through the door and the Sorcerer spins around in surprise. Suddenly he smiles and slashes at his wrist with his long, talon-like fingernails. He starts chanting and throws a cloud of yellow dust into the air, the blood streaming from his wrist flowing into a swirling cloud of yellow and red, which begins to coallese into a horrific shape...

Basically, the HP damage - represented by blood represents the bond between the Sorcerer and the demon. A ritual (and maybe sacrifice) may be able to do away with the HP cost.

EDIT: Just cleaned up some spelling and puntuation

 

[Judge Walker]

Ok, I see them now. My opinion on the matter is that if your sorcerer is going to try and summon a demon (or creature) there should be one hell of a cost for it. And I think the XPs fit the bill. As to the sorcerer who gained a lvl and now can't cast a spell he was able to the previous day, well that takes planning you either lvl up or store the XPs for the spell. Which it states in the book as a possiblity.

 

[Phil]

Ok, I see them now. My opinion on the matter is that if your sorcerer is going to try and summon a demon (or creature) there should be one hell of a cost for it. And I think the XPs fit the bill. As to the sorcerer who gained a lvl and now can't cast a spell he was able to the previous day, well that takes planning you either lvl up or store the XPs for the spell. Which it states in the book as a possiblity.

True, you can - but it seems overly artifical: XP are measure of experience afterall. What this system of spellcasting is actually doing is reducing your experience for doing things, whcih is counterintuitive &, IMO, for a spell which has such a limited duration, paying XP - when there is no long term gain seems a very large cost.

I must admit that one of the other reasons I like Conan is that there is no need to give the PCs XP totals, you can just tell them that they level (or not), which I tend to do when playing a more narrative style of play.

Having said all that, I have no problems with anyone who wants to use the XP costs as written - that is certainly their perogative. It's just not my preference - I'd prefer to have something else, whether it be HP damage (my new preference), longer casting times, CON damage etc.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm likely going to go with a choice between a Fate Point, XP, or extra corruption.

I don't want the spells to be pulled out as the solution to EVERYTHING, but I do want to see them get used.

..Even by players.

 

[Phil]

That's why I think that Fate Point expenditure is probably the best alternative.

I haven't read that far through the book yet - this may be a valid option but I need to know more. Can you please give me a quick run down on Fate Points?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Jason Durall]

That's why I think that Fate Point expenditure is probably the best alternative.

I haven't read that far through the book yet - this may be a valid option but I need to know more. Can you please give me a quick run down on Fate Points?

Cheers,

Phil

Fate Points are basically luck, Karma, or what-have you. Each character begins with 3, and they're earned through heroic or significant deeds.

With a Fate Point, you can:

- do maximum damage with a weapon (or spell, I believe) instead of rolling
- be "left for dead" - turning a death into unconsciousness and being left alone by the enemy
- remove a point of Corruption
- affect destiny though some small means, gaining a clue, an advantage, etc. that helps the character achieve some measure of control over a situation

 

[Phil]

Hmmm, Fate Points could work although they seem a bit limited in number for the archtypical evil sorcerer who is summoning demons to do his bidding etc...

Having said that, it does have potential...

 

[Anonymous]

That's why I like to let them choose. Fate Points, More Corruption (alway fun!), or XP...if I end up using it or not.

 

[Judge Walker]

True, you can - but it seems overly artifical: XP are measure of experience afterall. What this system of spellcasting is actually doing is reducing your experience for doing things, whcih is counterintuitive &, IMO, for a spell which has such a limited duration, paying XP - when there is no long term gain seems a very large cost.

I must admit that one of the other reasons I like Conan is that there is no need to give the PCs XP totals, you can just tell them that they level (or not), which I tend to do when playing a more narrative style of play.

Having said all that, I have no problems with anyone who wants to use the XP costs as written - that is certainly their perogative. It's just not my preference - I'd prefer to have something else, whether it be HP damage (my new preference), longer casting times, CON damage etc.

Understandable, it is your world afterall. And there have been alot of good alternatives thought up here. I think the way the book is looking at it is that gaining new spells is 'experience' for scholars, as much as lvling for fighters and other classes is.

 

[Phil]

True, you can - but it seems overly artifical: XP are measure of experience afterall. What this system of spellcasting is actually doing is reducing your experience for doing things, whcih is counterintuitive &, IMO, for a spell which has such a limited duration, paying XP - when there is no long term gain seems a very large cost.

I must admit that one of the other reasons I like Conan is that there is no need to give the PCs XP totals, you can just tell them that they level (or not), which I tend to do when playing a more narrative style of play.

Having said all that, I have no problems with anyone who wants to use the XP costs as written - that is certainly their perogative. It's just not my preference - I'd prefer to have something else, whether it be HP damage (my new preference), longer casting times, CON damage etc.

Understandable, it is your world afterall. And there have been alot of good alternatives thought up here. I think the way the book is looking at it is that gaining new spells is 'experience' for scholars, as much as lvling for fighters and other classes is.

True, but to get new spells you either need to take a feat or 'level up' so you still need your XP to do so and by spending it to cast spells you are effectively stunting your development.