Alternative Bioscanners and Other Stuff

[aspqrz]

Other iterations of Traveller ... GURPS Traveller and, IIRC, Megatraveller, at least *attempted* to come to grips with cross TL prices and wages.

It seems to me that the GURPS system only begins to break down when
there are extreme differences in the technology levels - and thereby the
wealth levels and living standards - of planets within the same political
and economic entity (so, yes, it would become problematic in the OTU -
but the economy of the OTU is hugely implausible anyways).

Exactly. Now, if only Mongoose can be convinced to do something to work this into their version of Merchant Prince in a way that makes an ATU or Non-TU realistic(ish).

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

In MTU, I handle this in a fairly simple way, if only because my players would bludgeon me if I tried to get too complex.

So: TL of introduction (TLOI) - full price
TLOI +1 - half price
TLOI +2 or more - 1/4 price

I don't change weights of equipment items, or other stats, unless someone specifically looks for a more advanced bit of gear, in which case we negotiate, but usually it boils down to 1/2 weight or better stats/capacity = double the price it would be at that tech level.

More sensible than Traveller. However, especially for computerised/electronic equipment, the correlation between size/mass and price isn't always as simple.

For night vision equipment, forex, AIUI, price increase capacity by a fair amount, but mass not much, if at all.

As for Computers, laptops - if you include Netbooks as "Laptops" (and I do, FWIW) these days don't really cost all that much more than desktops and aren't at a noticeable performance penalty for regular civilian or even business use.

Three other bits I use, as well:
1. Mustering out benefits are always TL 12 or less
2. If an item has to be imported from off-world cost doubles
3. If the location where the purchase takes place is especially isolated, cost doubles. Numbers 2 and 3 are cumulative, so buying items on backwater planets where everything is shipped in cost four times what it would elsewhere.

#2 is way over the margins. Allowing for Traveller shipping costs, even.

Allowing for wholesale purchasing, shipping realistically doesn't cost all that much and doesn't add all that much to the price.

Allowing for Exchange rate differences, forex, an MSI Wind Netbook is US $360-500 in Oz and in the same range in the US (depending on whether you want the 3 cell or 6 cell battery version). Both coming from Taiwan, with shipping to Oz presumably being cheaper.

In South Africa price seems to be in the range US$480-580, so, perhaps, 15% more expensive.

I'd guess that the cost increase would realistically be more on the order of 5-10% per Jump (not entirely based on the actual distance of the Jump) from ... wherever, probably averaging closer to the 5% for longer jumps and closer to the 10% for shorter ones for something approaching real world values.

Phil

 

[AndrewW]

Of course, by "printer" you mean a noisy and slow dot-matrix. The first commercial laser printer was still a year away and would cost $5000, and ink-jets were years away. The monitor was monochrome (though you could get fuzzy color on a converted TV), and the floppy disk used rather delicate media that stored a whopping 320 kilobytes. The hardshell floppies were introduced to the market at the end of 1984, as was the mouse. Personal scale hard drives were a couple years away still, and would start at a magnanimous 10 megabytes of capacity for a stupid amount of money.

Could have been a color monitor. But yup the 1541 is a 5.25" drive. Dot matrix printers would just fine though, got a some here. Ink jets being non impact don't work for multiple sheets with carbon inbetween for example.

 

[GypsyComet]

Of course, by "printer" you mean a noisy and slow dot-matrix. The first commercial laser printer was still a year away and would cost $5000, and ink-jets were years away. The monitor was monochrome (though you could get fuzzy color on a converted TV), and the floppy disk used rather delicate media that stored a whopping 320 kilobytes. The hardshell floppies were introduced to the market at the end of 1984, as was the mouse. Personal scale hard drives were a couple years away still, and would start at a magnanimous 10 megabytes of capacity for a stupid amount of money.

Could have been a color monitor.

EGA was brand new in 84, so I suppose 16 colors in 640x350 counts. Not sure they were all that cheap, though.

http://bugclub.org/beginners/history/MonitorsHistory.html

---


Now, I will attempt to find the road again, as we seem to have wandered off-topic. "Forest for the trees", and all that...

 

[DCAnsell]

More sensible than Traveller. However, especially for computerised/electronic equipment, the correlation between size/mass and price isn't always as simple.

For night vision equipment, forex, AIUI, price increase capacity by a fair amount, but mass not much, if at all.

As for Computers, laptops - if you include Netbooks as "Laptops" (and I do, FWIW) these days don't really cost all that much more than desktops and aren't at a noticeable performance penalty for regular civilian or even business use.

Three other bits I use, as well:
1. Mustering out benefits are always TL 12 or less
2. If an item has to be imported from off-world cost doubles
3. If the location where the purchase takes place is especially isolated, cost doubles. Numbers 2 and 3 are cumulative, so buying items on backwater planets where everything is shipped in cost four times what it would elsewhere.

#2 is way over the margins. Allowing for Traveller shipping costs, even.

Allowing for wholesale purchasing, shipping realistically doesn't cost all that much and doesn't add all that much to the price.

Allowing for Exchange rate differences, forex, an MSI Wind Netbook is US $360-500 in Oz and in the same range in the US (depending on whether you want the 3 cell or 6 cell battery version). Both coming from Taiwan, with shipping to Oz presumably being cheaper.

In South Africa price seems to be in the range US$480-580, so, perhaps, 15% more expensive.

I'd guess that the cost increase would realistically be more on the order of 5-10% per Jump (not entirely based on the actual distance of the Jump) from ... wherever, probably averaging closer to the 5% for longer jumps and closer to the 10% for shorter ones for something approaching real world values.

Phil

You make good points. The system (if you can call it that) that I use is just plainly not accurate. It definitely was made more to be quick and easy to apply then really trying too hard to rationalize the Traveller economy. In effect, more for 'feel' then for reality (such as it is in Traveller.)

That said, I think using another set of modifiers might bring it more into line with your thoughts. They are based very loosely on the weapons improvements in Mongoose Traveller's High Guard book, along with ideas vaguely remembered from GURPS Ultra Tech.

FREX:

Tech Level of Introduction (TLOI)
General Equipment (Weapons/Armor/Etc) 100% Cost
Electronics 100% Cost

TLOI +1
General Equipment 50% Cost, 1 Advance
Electronics 50% Cost, 50% Weight, 1 Advance

TLOI +2 or more
General Equipment 25% Cost, 2 Advances
Electronics 25% Cost, 25% Weight, 2 Advances

Sample Advances
Accurate (General) +1 DM to task rolls using this device
Powerful (Weapon) +2 on Damage rolls
Tougher (Armor) +2 Protection
Light (General) 50% Weight

...and obviously other advances could be thought out, or made up on the spot.

Otherwise, maybe giving each giving a short list of price modifiers to apply, things like Off-World +20% or Isolated +30%, might make the bite less, and the suspension of disbelief easier.

P.S. I truly, truly, enjoyed Space Opera. One of the finest games in the genre ever, in my opinion.

 

[aspqrz]

More sensible than Traveller. However, especially for computerised/electronic equipment, the correlation between size/mass and price isn't always as simple.

For night vision equipment, forex, AIUI, price increase capacity by a fair amount, but mass not much, if at all.

As for Computers, laptops - if you include Netbooks as "Laptops" (and I do, FWIW) these days don't really cost all that much more than desktops and aren't at a noticeable performance penalty for regular civilian or even business use.

Three other bits I use, as well:
1. Mustering out benefits are always TL 12 or less
2. If an item has to be imported from off-world cost doubles
3. If the location where the purchase takes place is especially isolated, cost doubles. Numbers 2 and 3 are cumulative, so buying items on backwater planets where everything is shipped in cost four times what it would elsewhere.

#2 is way over the margins. Allowing for Traveller shipping costs, even.

Allowing for wholesale purchasing, shipping realistically doesn't cost all that much and doesn't add all that much to the price.

Allowing for Exchange rate differences, forex, an MSI Wind Netbook is US $360-500 in Oz and in the same range in the US (depending on whether you want the 3 cell or 6 cell battery version). Both coming from Taiwan, with shipping to Oz presumably being cheaper.

In South Africa price seems to be in the range US$480-580, so, perhaps, 15% more expensive.

I'd guess that the cost increase would realistically be more on the order of 5-10% per Jump (not entirely based on the actual distance of the Jump) from ... wherever, probably averaging closer to the 5% for longer jumps and closer to the 10% for shorter ones for something approaching real world values.

Phil

You make good points. The system (if you can call it that) that I use is just plainly not accurate. It definitely was made more to be quick and easy to apply then really trying too hard to rationalize the Traveller economy. In effect, more for 'feel' then for reality (such as it is in Traveller.)

That said, I think using another set of modifiers might bring it more into line with your thoughts. They are based very loosely on the weapons improvements in Mongoose Traveller's High Guard book, along with ideas vaguely remembered from GURPS Ultra Tech.

FREX:

Tech Level of Introduction (TLOI)
General Equipment (Weapons/Armor/Etc) 100% Cost
Electronics 100% Cost

TLOI +1
General Equipment 50% Cost, 1 Advance
Electronics 50% Cost, 50% Weight, 1 Advance

TLOI +2 or more
General Equipment 25% Cost, 2 Advances
Electronics 25% Cost, 25% Weight, 2 Advances

Sample Advances
Accurate (General) +1 DM to task rolls using this device
Powerful (Weapon) +2 on Damage rolls
Tougher (Armor) +2 Protection
Light (General) 50% Weight

...and obviously other advances could be thought out, or made up on the spot.

Otherwise, maybe giving each giving a short list of price modifiers to apply, things like Off-World +20% or Isolated +30%, might make the bite less, and the suspension of disbelief easier.

P.S. I truly, truly, enjoyed Space Opera. One of the finest games in the genre ever, in my opinion.

Yes, I think that you have the start of a good idea - I especially like the idea of advances to add non-expected changes to the devices.

I would, as I suggested elsewhere, probably suggest that 5-10% be added per Jump (of standard length at the apppropriate TL, not automatically each J1 multiple) rather than a flat 20/30%, but those are mere details to be worked on

Now, if only the person who will (eventually) be working on Merchant Prince is lurking somewhere on these boards :wink:

Phil

 

[DCAnsell]

I would, as I suggested elsewhere, probably suggest that 5-10% be added per Jump (of standard length at the apppropriate TL, not automatically each J1 multiple) rather than a flat 20/30%, but those are mere details to be worked on

Now, if only the person who will (eventually) be working on Merchant Prince is lurking somewhere on these boards :wink:

Mostly likely so, and that's a book I want to get my hands on. Or rather the PDF, I like being able to have the whole game system on one CD.

Getting back to the costs for distance, I guess what I had in mind was using 20% if the nearest A starport is 1-2 pc away, and isolated if its further away. Even at the higher tech levels, at least in MTU, most trade vessels are still using Jump 1 or 2, unless they are specialized for long-range or exploratory trade. I tend to think in my head of interstellar trade more in terms of age of sail cargo economies, rather then the age of the super container ship reaching all corners of the Imperium.

 

[aspqrz]

Getting back to the costs for distance, I guess what I had in mind was using 20% if the nearest A starport is 1-2 pc away, and isolated if its further away. Even at the higher tech levels, at least in MTU, most trade vessels are still using Jump 1 or 2, unless they are specialized for long-range or exploratory trade. I tend to think in my head of interstellar trade more in terms of age of sail cargo economies, rather then the age of the super container ship reaching all corners of the Imperium.

I tend to think in the latter terms, of course 8)

The way the Imperium was described in the original three Little Black Books definitely supports your view ... but pretty much everything that came after the 3LBB increasingly massively contradicted that POV and tacitly or openly moved "reality" to my preferred position.

In a still expanding Empire at TL9/10 as "cutting edge" tech your position makes sense ... in a TL/13-15 Empire which ceased expanding hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago, mine does.

I, personally, think that, with those caveats, your preferences are eminently valid ... and that its a pity that Traveller has developed in such a way as to cause the split between our preferred variants to be so much of a problem. I would guess it developed because no-one at GDW was really grasping how successful Traveller was going to turn out to actually be and they just layered on any old "cool" idea without, in the CTrav years, anyway, ever thinking those "cool" ideas through and considering their logical consequences ... well, that's my .02 Pacific Pesos anyway

Phil

 

[GypsyComet]

Getting back to the costs for distance, I guess what I had in mind was using 20% if the nearest A starport is 1-2 pc away, and isolated if its further away. Even at the higher tech levels, at least in MTU, most trade vessels are still using Jump 1 or 2, unless they are specialized for long-range or exploratory trade. I tend to think in my head of interstellar trade more in terms of age of sail cargo economies, rather then the age of the super container ship reaching all corners of the Imperium.

I tend to think in the latter terms, of course 8)

For certain definitions of "corners", certainly. Some worlds simply won't do enough *regular* business to call for the infrastructure to deal with super-freighters. Others will use the excuse of having a mega-port right nearby to NOT build their own.

(The rest of this has moved to http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38801)

 

[phild]

So that's seven A and B ports (one with a Navy Base) and one Naval Depot, and a Main of C and D ports connecting them.

I like the example, although in game terms I would think this is a single A port. I don't think having Starport A means there is one megaport on the planet, it's a summation of a wide range of facilities. But your overall point remains valid nonetheless!

 

[GypsyComet]

If I were in a ship coming from off-planet, yes, the Bay Area is one big sprawly "star" port.

(The rest of this has moved to http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38801)

 

[kristof65]

Wow GypsyComet. That SF Bay area analogy is pretty good. As someone who was stationed on the tug boats at Mare Island, I can really appreciate the subtleties you can get from that analogy - like Suisun City and Rio Vista's marinas being on their own channels, off of the "main".

I'm sure there are other areas around the world that could serve as similar analogies - Sydney, New York, etc..

 

[GypsyComet]

The analogy isn't perfect, of course, as most of the larger ports in the SF Bay Area are not trading with each other *via the super-freighters*. Most of that commerce is happening one step down (via semi truck) or smaller.

If you picture the Bay Area as a cluster or small main dominated by three Pop 6 and a large number of Pop 5, 4, and 3 worlds, all feeding a Pop 9 located J4 out the Golden Gate, that model can make sense. While there is commerce going on within the cluster, the big flying iron is headed out-cluster to feed the Pop 9.

 

[kristof65]

(The rest of this has moved to http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38801)

 

[Dave Chase]

I too liked GypsyComet's analogy.

But consider this for the reason for all the Class A starports.
Each A port is specialized or mainly handles certain types of material/trade. In extreme active areas this might well be true.

Or each port handles only certain shipping companies/manufacturers due to ownership(s) issues, mergers, contracts, etc.

So, I can see a place were high levels of traffic or trade might cause more than one Class A or B ports being built in the same system or neighboring systems.

Dave Chase

 

[phild]

So, I can see a place were high levels of traffic or trade might cause more than one Class A or B ports being built in the same system or neighboring systems.

I can't see this in the *same* system, at least not in the vanilla Traveller rules, because to me 'A' is an abstract measurement of the port facilities available to a system; it is not a description of a specific starport facility at which all spacecraft must dock. And this is particularly true if it's a balkanised government. YMMV

 

[GypsyComet]

Sort of. The port rating indicates overall capability, but that capability might well be spread out quite a bit. Under older editions that addressed whole-system details, only one world in a system has a "starport" with the customs facilities. All other facilities in a system are called "spaceports". Even this might not apply to a balkanized mainworld/system, so you might find several fully rated A or B ports in one system.

From the POV of an incoming starship with no particular ties to the system, the UWP starport rating indicates what is available to the "general public" of starship operators. There have been a few examples of ports that exceeded the public rating if you happened to be a Scout, or work for a specific company, or were in a Navy ship.

 

[kristof65]

The SF Bay Area analogy actually works fairly well on two levels -
(The rest of this has moved to http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38801)

 

[GypsyComet]

This almost needs its own topic now. Shall I go start one?

 

[kristof65]

This almost needs its own topic now. Shall I go start one?

I was thinking that as I wrote my post.

Sure, go ahead.