Alternate take on Hyborean Magic (again)

[Willowhugger]

I thought I'd share how I'm going to run magic in my next Hyborean game based on how I ran it in the last couple. I'd appreciate some feeback on what people think of it and how they'd recommend I proceed.

How Charles Phipps runs his Sorcerers

In general, I make it a point to do something very "non-Howard" with my Sorcerers.

Basically, the vast majority of Magicians in Hyborea are frauds. The Hyborean Age at my table is literred with people like this guy.

And I don't mean in Conan the Destroyer.

Almost every priest in Hyborea, sans Cimmerians, claims the power to work powerful miracles and awesome wizardry. Furthermore, there's plenty of professional fortune tellers and oracles plus all manner of genuine full-time magicians that ply their trade in nearly every damn city in the continent.

The simple fact is almost every one of these guys is an utter fraud and has about the same level of magical power as your typical priest in the modern world or Fortune teller. The fact is that people in Hyborea are no more intelligent and educated than the majority of ones in the real world.

What's different is the fact that plenty of "Genuine Wizards" exist as well. However, they're genuine in the context of Arthur C. Clarke meets Harry Houdini. In the Hyborean Age, a man who knows some basics of chemistry and stage magic can get away with a whole lot. One of the favored services of wizards during my game is people who actually know something about astrology and measuring the weather since the advice they provide is USEFUL, it's just that what we tend to term as a Farmer's Almanac is divination to most folk.

I like 300's take on the thing to some extent. There's people who put smoke powder in skulls, keep gords of Flaming Oil to "breathe fire", and otherwise jealously guard their superstitious power. It's not that difficult to claim to be a powerful sorcerer in the Hyborean Age and get away with lives of luxury or power.

Here's the rub though, almost all real wizards are like this too.

I'm considering ditching the Scholar Class completely (which is a poor title for a Magic User in my opinion anyway). In general, the whole "Lovecraftian" magical take seems to be much more appropriate for my work, though I'll have to find an appropriate Spell Casting Class or create my own variant on it.

But generally, the idea is Magic is Frickin' Hard

Thoth-Amon showed up in one of our games and I had their dinner table served by "zombies" who kept their mouths sewn shut. Some of the players were shocked to discover they were zombies in the Haitian sense, a bunch of people drugged pufferfish that had their mouths sewn shut only a little so they could open it to drink broth. Why would Thoth-Amon, the most powerful wizard period in my Hyborean Age resort to such cheap trickery?

Because it was impressive and freaked people out, which is something he needs to do a lot of to keep people scared of him. However; I had an NPC servant of his comment that his real rituals required hours of preparation, meditation, and human sacrifice to carry out. It was physically and mentally taxing to the most amazing levels possible.

So yes, as it's described in the Masters of Yimsha, the spells require the right astrological signs and god knows what else. Almost all magic a real wizard uses to establish his credentials is mummery and theatrics.

Likewise, I think my new wizard class (If I make it) will almost certainly require the Aristocrats "Do you know who I am?" Most magicians are pretty damn helpless in my Hyborea before Conan and company, they just need to use their terrifying reputations and assembled minions to keep people away before the climax.

So any suggestions, critiques, ideas?

 

[Hervé]

I really like your style and approach of Hyborian magic. I already tend to play sorcerers in this way in my campaign. Most of them rely on fear, bluff and tricks and rarely last more than one round when effectively engaged in combat with the party.
Eventhough the Conan sorcerer was given some grisly feats to give him a darker tone, magic in Conan OGL still reeks too much of D&D, with all these feats, requirements, spells, and so on... OK, there's all this alchemical items like Tomb Dust or Demon Fire that go in the way of the trickster sorcerer. Then comes the problem of game balance. When, after a few encounters, the players will realise than most of the sorcerer power is based on tricks, evil sorcerers will lose much of their impact.

 

[Willowhugger]

When, after a few encounters, the players will realise than most of the sorcerer power is based on tricks, evil sorcerers will lose much of their impact.

True, though I think that it can be counterbalanced by the Raiders of the Lost Ark effect too. I.e. when magic does show up, it wipes out a whole ****ing troop of Nazis. I'm not sure how to honestly handle that since showing that "Magic is horribly horribly strange and effective" without going through D&Disms is pretty hard.

Player characters will really fear a guy that can summon a Shoggoth or whatever the Hell alien horrors that they bring into this reality are that are work. They can also fear the Sorcerers legion of henchmen and spells worked on them from afar. But to reference the Conan movie that got me into Howard, there's something to be said that Thulsa Doom dies because the only trick he can pull on Conan is hypnosis when he finally confronts the man.

I think that works for me.

Sorcerers aren't HELPLESS before armed men with swords but The Phoenix on the Sword is fundamentally about Thoth Amon losing his magic ring and getting enslaved by a bandit of all people.

It works thematically by being able to see through "Wizard Tricks", the PCs are better than 99% of the people on the planet and able to do more than cower. But you also don't want to have them think "Okay; we've cornered Thoth-Amon, now to stab him a lot."

It's a delicate balance and one I'll have to think about when and if I start working on a Class to replace Scholar.

 

[Sutek]

These quotes come to mind:
"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
"Fear will keep the local systems in line."
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I like your interpretation, and also feel that magic is too D&D in Conan as written. Unfortunately, the fix is to simply pull what you need out of a hat and create the appropriate effect for the story with no real concrete rules involved, or you stick to the Magic rules as writen, but toss out the spells or entire schools that don't comply to your vision of what should really be available to a "sorcerer".

In the first case, you only stand to run into issues with your players if they are incapable of suspending thier disbelief and just remaining true to thier characters. Of course, these sorts of feats are (A) usually real magic and (B) almost always the undoing of the sorcerer producing them in stories. This is the "summoning Shoggoth" situation you refered to. The power is real, but the sorcerer is trying to use it to create his own effects for his own ends. Ususally something eats him. (lol)

The second tact is more realistic in terms of maintaining the "laws" or the world. Alchemy and illusion are the easiest and most realistic way to make magical seeming effects, and some spells are just to far out to fall into this more grounded manner of handling magic. This is the first step I'd take to accomplish what you're trying to. Just read through every spell and get rid of ones that feel to other-worldly or that couldn't be managed through subterfuge, high skill at slieght of hand or through mezmerism or some other near-metaphysical, albeit learned, skill or talent.

I would NOT however drop the scholar class. Yes, they make the best "magic users" but they also make the best Subedai's (lol). These are the perfect class to build with in ordrer to make that know that the local wicked priest's fire breath is really a concoction of sulfur and dung cleverly ignited by concealed lackeys at the right moment of the ceremony. I personally think non-magical Scholars can be some of the most fun characters in the game if managed by the right sort of player. Plus, if you're limiting the schools/spells and focus your campaign and magical rules on alchemy and trickery, loads of Ranks in Bluff and Craft variants can make for a super cool non-sorcerer sorcerer.

 

[rabindranath72]

I too feel that as it currently stands, magic in d20 Conan is too D&D-ish.
The fact that Toth-Amon in "The Phoenix on the Sword" is essentially powerless without his ring, tells much about how really widespread magic is. And he is supposed to be a king among sorcerers!
I believe a closer fit to Hyborian Age magic is given by Call of Cthulhu-style spells (after all, the Hyborian age is part of the Mythos). I have used with some success the d20 Call of Cthulhu spells with all their effects on spellcasters, and I assure you that the number of players willing to play sorcerers has been drastically reduced! I completely ditched the magic attack bonus, spell points etc., and in doing so I got a system which is easier to handle, and closer to how we see Hyborian Age magic work in the tales.
I STRONGLY recommend reading the section about magic and spells in d20 Call of Cthulhu.
Scholars can still be valuable characters, but not in the same way as they currently are in the d20 Conan rules (forget about blasting your enemies with spells!)

Anyway, interesting thread and thought-provoking answers! Keep them coming!

Antonio

 

[Willowhugger]

I like Call of Cthulhu like magic but ultimately think that part of the problem is that it's essentially just a small series of spells. I like thinking that wizards like Thoth-Amon have a fairly vast collection of spells and rituals at their beck and call, it just needs something like the Ring to focus it or goodness knows what other fell components.

Oddly, instead of Call of Cthulhu, I'm thinking perhaps J.R.R Tolkien. Bizarrely, I think that despite disagreeing on every other principle of fantasy the other father of the bastard child that is D&D (and what a wonderful child it is) than Robert Howard may have had a good idea of how to handle magic.

Something almost like the Artificer Class where objects and magic are tied intimately together when not bringing forth horrible Demons like Sauron or the Balrog.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I've been working on a rewrite of the magic system and this is one of the things I incorporated. Magicians (my scholar variant) are all about skills and being able to do things with those skills that other classes can't - things which appear downright magical. Further, knowing that they are surrounded by a bunch of ignorant savages many of whom care nothing for knowledge and would just as soon cut the magician's head off, the magician has learned to suvive on his wit. He has learned to scare the bejeebers out of people.
Now, the world is fundamentally magical. Chemistry, for example, is real in our world. There's nothing magical about it, but, still, it works and can do incredible things. Likewise, alchemy, for example, is real in the game setting. There's nothing magical about it, but, still, it works and can do incredible things. When astrology is real, someone who is good with it really can see the future. When demons are real, someone who is good with ritual magic really can summon them. And, yet, people in the game setting view them as mundane skills - albeit skills which most people aren't capable of (just like most people in the real world aren't chemists). Now, imagine that people -know- you can summon demons. Further, these demons may hang around, unseen, and go into action with a single word from you. Perhaps the people know this because they've seen it happen. But what they don't know is that summoning demons is hard and risky, so you don't do it unless you have to. These people want to attack you. They don't know if there is a demon around ready to jump into action at any time. All you need to do is convince them that there is and they'll run in terror.

 

[Spectator]

I too feel that as it currently stands, magic in d20 Conan is too D&D-ish.

I disagree, if you keep to the 1st edition corebook and Skrolls of Skelos, I think there are very few 'whiz-bang' DnD spells. As for the numerous other supplements with spells, I don't know, since I don't own them. A for 2nd ed. Conan, I don't own that either.

In the core, magick aint easy, it drains your PP quickly, and you have to invest in a bow and arrow if you want death at a distance.

That being said, being a master hypnotist and telekinesis spell caster affords you good powers that are very in the true spirit of REH. Havig the meditation feat is great for non-demonic spell casters.

I suppose if you want to take out the most DnD spell, I would eliminate Shapeshifter and the Cloud of Yimsha spell. I would admit that not having my spellcaster turn into an enraged polar bear during a fight kinda sucks or flying over the dangerous mountains as a giant eagle as opposed to walking through the Kezankian Hillmen home turf.

I have grappled mentally with Conan and Magic and have come to think that it is quite possibly the best of every system. In fact after I redesigned the game to make it more playable a' la "Castles and Crusaders" the magic system was the one thing that was kept fairly intact.

BTW Lillithsthrall can you re-post your magician class, and design a 13th level character to see how its built?

Thanks guys.

 

[DaveNC]

True magic is very rare in my game, but when it does show up, it is horrific! I have several of these "fake" magicians in my game also. Individuals who just take advantage of the people's primal fear of sorcery, but have no real power themselves - just a few parlor tricks. It is the true sorceror's reputation that these fake's make use of.

 

[afro-slav]

I am rather glad that I found this thread. I too have had my problems with coming to grips with my personal dim view of magic in rpg's and and attempting to reach some acceptable form of it.

I also wish to state that I plan on running the world as a generic rpg as opposed to Hyboria.

What my tentative thoughts on the matter are:

Much of the magic in the is as stated above fraud.

There is REAL magic in the world, but it is not natural to humans so one must make a pact with non-human entities. They do not have to necessarily have to be evil but definitely alien. The entity is bond to the sorcerer and taking a nod towards Mongoose's OGL Ancients there will be no Power Points but they will take non-lethal damage per spell instead.

The entity drawing on the life force of the character to manipulate reality.
So it is possible to burn one's self out.

I will probably keep some form of corruption also.

Also scholars do not HAVE to be spell slingers.

And using Clarke's Third Law there are artificers, alchemist, and apothecaries who produce items that seem like magic but are just advanced tech.


Anyway, these are just some quick thoughts of mine.


PS
I forgot to add going through the list of spells and getting rid of anything that does not fit your vision.

and there sometimes being a test of wills between the character and the bound entity.

Bad things can happen with a failed save and this often keeps people away from magic.