Aim and Hasten Questions

[Melkor]

Hi all,

Couple of questions that came up in the first game of our new Traveller campaign.

- Can you use the Aim minor action for a bonus to Melee Attacks?

- Can you declare that you are acting Hastily and the offset the penalty by Aiming in the same turn?

Thanks.

 

[dragoner]

I'd say no to both as a gut reaction, unless the player could make a good case for it; but I'd see where one could say yes. Aiming a strike with a sword? Sure. Hastily aiming? Seems to preclude itself, but either are a referee's judgment call, with input from the players.

 

[DickTurpin]

I think that you could use Aim for melee attacks, but only if your target was standing still and not defending. Basically that means a sneak attack on an unaware foe. I don't see very many chances to get that kind of opportunity, but it could happen.

Acting hastily and aiming are opposite actions and even if you could do them both at once, the resulting DMs and time spent would cancel each other out anyway. They could be used as RP 'fluff' : "As tracers flash towards his position, Jason dives behind the cargo crate and quickly aims at the gunner before squeezing off a shot from his laser rifle." Despite the wording of the action, it would be treated as a regular attack.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

That falls into the slop category, where the referee decides on the spot to allow it or not. Sounds like a player is slowing down combat in your game. The player needs to remember that the other characters are doing things also. Not just standing around waiting for him to kill them.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Can you use the Aim minor action for a bonus to Melee Attacks?

I don't see why not.

Can you declare that you are acting Hastily and the offset the penalty by Aiming in the same turn?

By the rules it seams one can hasten in a round and aim as well.

However, there is an interpretation of the rules that would prevent such if a GM wished. The rules state for aiming

as long as the character does nothing except aim until he makes his attack.

Hastening does not just occure at the beginning of the round to alter initiative. It is imposing a -DM on the attack or any other action during the round and thus the character is doing something and can not aim.

They could be used as RP 'fluff' : "As tracers flash towards his position, Jason dives behind the cargo crate and quickly aims at the gunner before squeezing off a shot from his laser rifle." Despite the wording of the action, it would be treated as a regular attack.

While nicely descriptive, I do not believe it is possible by the rules.

dives behind the cargo crate = Changing Stance = minor action
aims at the gunner = Aiming = minor action
squeezing off a shot = Attack = significant action

That is too many actions for the round.

 

[Anonymous]

Declaring your character is acting hastily is done at the start of the round at no cost of action, significant or minor, it could be argued that it's min/maxing but that happens whenever you have rules so I'd see it as sour grapes to deny a player the option. I say you can hasten to +2 your initiative and aim to get level your bonus to hit. That still leaves you with 1 major action or two minor.

Aiming is taking a little more time to get a better hit, why couldn't you do that in melee? A second yes from me. If your opponent attacks first and you react by dodging or parrying you forfeit the aim bonus by doing something.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'd see it as sour grapes to deny a player the option.

I would fully agree if this were done arbitrarily in the middle of a game. But there is a logical reason and there is a rules based interpretation that supports it.

Declaring your character is acting hastily is done at the start of the round at no cost of action, significant or minor

Agreed.

Keep in mind though that this is just when it is declared. You also do record keeping at this point and alter the characters initiative for the round. The round then progresses with characters acting in initiative order and the character that declared hastening gets to act at some point during the round. Hastening effects the actions for the character hastening that round no matter when they occur. The character who hastens could even choose to delay when their turn in the initiative comes up then later on, hastily interrupt another character!

Essentially, hastening effects the character for the entire round.

The rules do not say only significant actions are affected by hastening. So to me, that means minor and free actions too. YMMV

Keep in mind that just because one has actions doesn't mean they can do anything they want.

GM: "Dude, you are unconscious. I don't care if it's your turn in the initiative, you can't use your actions!"

 

[Anonymous]

GM: "Dude, you are unconscious. I don't care if it's your turn in the initiative, you can't use your actions!"

Yeah, true but then the head of the beast arises and your player starts bitching about how the turn sequence should allow for simultaneous actions... the idea that you sit still and wait your turn in real life is daft. They is the rules tho that we agree to play to...

Everything has to be done in the spirit of reason and co operation, if your players just want to argue, you or they are doing something wrong or missing the point of gaming, being to have fun...

You also get to remind them that if they find themselves in a fair fight, their tactics suck...

ETA, this post should be read with a large dose of sarcasm mixed in and the idea that teaching your granny to suck eggs has been done before...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just a heads up hiro, I edited my previous post while you were posting. Just wanted to let you know in case you wanted to go back and see what I added.

FYI, I am not a big fan of initiative myself. My purpose in posting was to help someone that was working through the rules and thought it didn't make sense to be able to hasten and aim and point out that the rules would support a decision to not allow it.

 

[Anonymous]

I haven't read your edited post but thanks for the heads up.

To me it does make sense to hasten and aim, the cost is the minor action. The benefit is getting your shot off first and if you're skill/att is good, getting the hit in. (If our friend lady luck and the dice are with you of course).

If that minor action can be better used then that's the players choice.

And I agree, the initiative rules suck.

:mrgreen:

 

[DickTurpin]

They could be used as RP 'fluff' : "As tracers flash towards his position, Jason dives behind the cargo crate and quickly aims at the gunner before squeezing off a shot from his laser rifle." Despite the wording of the action, it would be treated as a regular attack.

While nicely descriptive, I do not believe it is possible by the rules.

dives behind the cargo crate = Changing Stance = minor action
aims at the gunner = Aiming = minor action
squeezing off a shot = Attack = significant action

That is too many actions for the round.

Thank you for supporting my point (in bold above), there would be no benefit from the 'hastened aiming'; it is role playing fluff instead of an actual allowable action.

 

[alex_greene]

Let's say that your medic needs to subdue a hostile, deranged person on the passenger deck. The medic has the drop on him but the only place he can place the hypospray to sedate the guy is the exposed shoulder and base of the neck.

That'd be effectively an aimed Melee Combat (unarmed) attack. Treat it as aimed; and if it succeeds, the medic manages to make contact and inject the sedative as intended.

If not, the medic will have lost the element of surprise, the assailant turns around and maybe one of the other players will get to plug him while the nutbag's attention is focused on attempting to murder the medic.

 

[IanBruntlett]

If not, the medic will have lost the element of surprise, the assailant turns around and maybe one of the other players will get to plug him while the nutbag's attention is focused on attempting to murder the medic.

In a Psychiatric hospital, I've seen someone who had been "subdued" by Police using pepper spray. The after effects are horrendous. I thought he'd been beaten up by a Rugby team.

 

[alex_greene]

If not, the medic will have lost the element of surprise, the assailant turns around and maybe one of the other players will get to plug him while the nutbag's attention is focused on attempting to murder the medic.

In a Psychiatric hospital, I've seen someone who had been "subdued" by Police using pepper spray. The after effects are horrendous. I thought he'd been beaten up by a Rugby team.

Being shot up by autofire might look a little worse for the target.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

GM: "Dude, you are unconscious. I don't care if it's your turn in the initiative, you can't use your actions!"

Yeah, true but then the head of the beast arises and your player starts bitching about how the turn sequence should allow for simultaneous actions... the idea that you sit still and wait your turn in real life is daft. They is the rules tho that we agree to play to...

Everything has to be done in the spirit of reason and co operation, if your players just want to argue, you or they are doing something wrong or missing the point of gaming, being to have fun...

You also get to remind them that if they find themselves in a fair fight, their tactics suck...

ETA, this post should be read with a large dose of sarcasm mixed in and the idea that teaching your granny to suck eggs has been done before...

Random thought: how about allowing the players to 'jump in' where they want in the initiative order, but at a -DM equal to the difference between their initiative and the number of the beast whose head just popped up?

Also, I see no reason not to allow aiming in close combat. Roleplay it as a focused special martial arts attack or whatever, and rule it as aim + attack (melee)

As for hasten and aim, why not?

 

[Anonymous]

I'd use the delaying rule to allow players to jump in wherever they like tho it's pretty easy to get into a situation where everyone is delaying and we get a mexican stand off. It's good to have rules that allow a team, players or non players to set things up to have the initiative cos that's what will win you the fight, hit first, hit hard stuff... trouble is, a character might have tactics skill but then the player wants to do x, y and z that's tactically poor and wonders why s/he gets shot.

The challenge I see is to have players role play their characters without resorting to the dice when their knowledge falls short of their characters skill which is a problem across the board.