Admirals - making them usable

[Da Boss]

Now one of the many fun things of 2nd Ed was the introduction of Admirals - great idea and a fun thing in games Except of course no -one uses them.

the reason being that not only do they have to go on the most expensive ship you field but you then doubel the cost.

A really good P+P thing - or even S+P thing would be to make them usable / part fo the game.

now what do we think is the best way to do this?

I like the simple "must be put on the highest level ship or any ship with Command" as it makes sense to me. However there are problems - some races have no or too high PL command and it still may not enough..........

Other ideas I have been thinking off:

1. As long as both players agree, any fleet of 5pt raid or higher (very arbitary number ) gets a free Admiral to put on a ship in their fleet.

2. Perhaps they could cost 1FAP of the PL you are playing at and give away VP as such?

Anyone else got any good or better ideas


Veteran Captains
On a related note:
One of the other (more successful ) tournaments at the moment) is having Captains that have one "Admiral" ability - which sounded very cool.

maybe they could cost a Skirmish point ? Maximum number may be helpful? perhaps 2

so in a 5pt Skirmish a Captain would cost 1 Skirmish point - and award Victory Points as such?

 

[Burger]

some races have no or too high PL command and it still may not enough..........

And some races have very low PL command ships, yes I'm looking at you Ochlavita-Ki. It wouldn't make sense for an admiral of a 5pt War fleet, to be sitting on a skirmish ship IMO.

And yes, admirals cost too much. How about they cost one PL below the ship on which they are placed (ie. on a raid ship they cost a skirmish point, on a war they cost a battle point, cannot be placed on patrol at all)?

 

[Clanger]

I think for tourney games 5 FAP Raid should get a "free" admiral. Playing in some test Darkness Rising Games. Having an Admiral with the fleet made for some interesting games.

I agree that Admirals should be a fixed point cost and only on ships that give cammand (an admiral needs to cordinate his ships).

 

[Foxmeister]

Well, it's fundamentally wrong that putting an Admiral on an Armageddon level ship costs 1 Battle and yet the same Admiral on a War level ship costs 1 War.

Why not just 1 Battle full stop regardless of the ship they are on?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Burger]

Why not just 1 Battle full stop regardless of the ship they are on?

Because putting them on an armageddon ship gives much more advantage than putting them on a skirmish ship (depending on abilities of course! But usually). The current disparity you note is a bit of a problem, in fact the only time I've ever taken an admiral was an armageddon ship, because it is so much cheaper than usual.

 

[Foxmeister]

Because putting them on an armageddon ship gives much more advantage than putting them on a skirmish ship (depending on abilities of course! But usually). The current disparity you note is a bit of a problem, in fact the only time I've ever taken an admiral was an armageddon ship, because it is so much cheaper than usual.

Admirals shouldn't be on Skirmish level ships, so I don't see an issue!


However, there are *plenty* of Admiral abilities where the level of ship they are on has no effect whatsoever. Yes, an Admiral on a Skirmish level ship is more vulnerable, but then again you could just hide them in a corner if you wanted.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Delthos]

I like Burger's suggestion of them costing one priority level lower than the ship they are placed on, with them not being able to be placed on a patrol level. If you don't like them not being able to be placed on a patrol choice, you could just say that they can, but then they cost a patrol point.

 

[Dave G]

How about making the cost of the admiral variable?

For example an admiral could have 1 or 2 traits. Each trait has a cost associated with it.

If the trait has an effect on the admirals ship (for example +1CQ), then the cost should be 1 FAP at 2 levels below the admirals ship.

If the trait has an effect on the entire fleet (for example +1 Command), then the cost should be related to the level at which the battle is being played. e.g. If the battle is at War level then 1 FAP at Battle level.

An admiral with both traits would add the cost together.

 

[Delthos]

While that would be interesting method, I think its better to use the KISS method. That's why I like Burgers method, it's simple, it's consistent, and it is probably a better representation of the increase they give to the ship.

 

[Da Boss]

I also like Burgers Idea - how about as described but it must be on a ship equal to or higher to the PL of the scenario? It may not be on Patrol or Skirmish ships or is that too restrictive?

 

[Grunvald]

I'd be willing to say up to Raid level with the exception of a few predetermind admirals!

 

[Foxmeister]

While that would be interesting method, I think its better to use the KISS method. That's why I like Burgers method, it's simple, it's consistent, and it is probably a better representation of the increase they give to the ship.

In my opinion, it would be just another reason to "buy down".

If you look at Admiral traits, 8 of them are ship specific, and 7 of them apply to the entire fleet. However, who is going to make their Admiral an "Engineering Genius" or a "Top Gun" and put them on a Skirmish level ship?

Chances are that an Admiral on a Skirmish ship is going to pick the Fleet traits, and IMHO these are the most powerful anyway. Why should it be so much more expensive to put that same Admiral on a War level ship?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Admirals and special abilities are just another thing the PL system doesn't work for. If you want stuff like that, move to a points system. BF: Evo does it and it works fine. Forget this sacred cow nonsense and make the change already.

 

[Ministalker]

What about this method?

Captain: 1 special trait, can be put on any ship, maximum 2/fleet, fixed cost = 1 Skirmish FAP
Commandant: 2 special traits, only on ship with Command +X, maximum 1/fleet, fixed cost = 1 Raid FAP
Admiral: 3 special traits, only on ship with Command +X, maximum 1/fleet, fixed cost = 1 Battle FAP
Unique Personality: see rulebook description, fixed cost = 1 War FAP

The gamers can make agreement for a free leader in each fleet if they want so.

Cheers

 

[Ripple]

We're getting into the one thing folks said the PL system was good for, keeping it simple and avoiding the niggly bits of adding specials across the board.

The fleet wide stuff IS the issue here.

And while I don't want to encourage buying down... some races have to... so I don't advise attaching him to the level of the scenario. One more opportunity to screw the drazi by making them buy up to a ship that gets weaker as the PL goes up.

Burgers general idea was the best. One level below... or maybe he takes one slot at the level of the fight. A raid level fight takes a raid level slot, as that way the fleet boosts go up and down with the size of the fleet, not the size of the ship.

Ripple

 

[Enalut]

or maybe he takes one slot at the level of the fight. A raid level fight takes a raid level slot, as that way the fleet boosts go up and down with the size of the fleet, not the size of the ship.

Ripple

I think Ripple has a good idea hear--make the Admiral cost tied to the point level of the game. However, if we are .looking to encurae thier use, I think that they should be 1 level lower than the game being played--most games seem to be played at 3-5 points, and havinga character cost 20%-33% of your force makes them less likely to be taken., whereas if they cost only 1/2 a strting point then I can see them beign taken.

As an added risk/reward, you could say that they still granted Double VP's (so about the same VP's as if they cost a full point)--something like Gaim Queens.

 

[Foxmeister]

Costing them to a FAP at the PL of the game works for me far better than basing it on the PL level of the ship they are on since it means the fleet abilities are equally costed. Of course, the corollary is that the ship ones are not, but IMHO the fleet ones are mostly superior anyway.

Regards,

Dave

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I'm also going with the idea of linking the cost of the admiral to the level of the battle. It keeps the fleet abilities more or less balanced (although it fails to take into account the differences between a 3pt battle and a 10pt battle), and it encourages buying up to make the most of the ship specific abilities.

 

[KennyBoy]

How about just costing the abilities? The Admiral/Commander has to go on one of the ships at the highest PL in the fleet, but you buy the bonuses that he/she would give to the fleet...

a Patrol point for the Command bonus
a Patrol point for each ability he has - up to a maximum of three...

This way the "Admiral" could cost from between a Patrol point, up to a Raid point...

 

[Clanger]

That is a more workable system each Admiral ability costs a Patrol point. It makes it easier that way and have a scale on what you can spend. Make the cap the level of the game.

1 ability = Patrol
2 abilities = Skirmish
3 abilities = 1 Skirmish, 1 Patrol
4 abilities = 1 Raid point.

Good idea Kenny Boy.