[ACtA:SF] Shield recharge/BEtS SA

[Halfbat]

This came up on the ACtA board but whizzed by and I'm not sure where else I saw it.

When a ship receives a shields critical it lowers its _game_ starting shield score by 5 (RAW, FAQ) not the current shield value. This may or may not lower current shield value if not boosted.

In the 'Boost Energy to Shields!' Special Action the word 'starting', in relation to shield score, is used again. Does a shield-damaged ship it roll a number of dice equal to its _game_ starting shield score (as implied by the FAQ) or its _game_ starting shield value.

For example, a ship with 24 shields (an FFG, perhaps?) takes a -5 shields critical, giving it a max shields of 19. Damage that turn reduces shields down to 12. Next turn, the ships wishes to use the BEtS SA. Does it roll +2D6 (from its _game_ starting score of 24) or +1D6 (from its _turn_ starting maximum shield score of 19).

Thanks for clearing this up. I've been using _game_ starting score, which helps the Feds I play against even when though I play Klingongs.

T

 

[H]

i believe it's the game starting score used to calculate how many dice you roll.

 

[tneva82]

i believe it's the game starting score used to calculate how many dice you roll.

I thought it was what's the current maximum after shield criticals. If not then there's not much of a penalty for the shield criticals until they literally go to zero.

 

[H]

well the critical does cap your shield score but I suppose we need Matt to answer

 

[Halfbat]

I had a reply from Matt and he said he uses the original, design/pre-game shield score not the post-damage score.

For me that makes sense as when shields are damaged, the power to recharge them is still there. It's only when the actual generators take damage (criticals/-5 shields) that they are actually reduced in maximum strength, though the power's still there. In the example the ship would roll 2D6, not 1D6.

As I mentioned, being a Klingon player I'd have probably preferred the other way as it nicely nerfs the Rom/Fed shields. :wink:

 

[nekomata fuyu]

So, if I understand this right:
- Hits reduce your current shield score.
- Criticals reduce your current starting shield score.
- BEtS usues your original starting shield score.

This means that:
- Criticals only really have an effect if you happen to take an unlucky critical through shields.
- Even on shields 6 critical, you can BEtS to gain shields for a turn (as only you current starting shield score is set to 0).


I do hope this gets explained in a FAQ. I suspect that opponents would think that I'm making it up otherwise

 

[Halfbat]

Ummm, in hoping this is not a troll I'll answer from what I understand and got.

So, if I understand this right:
- Hits reduce your current shield score.

No. They reduce your current maximum shield score. If your current shield score, without boost, is higher than this then it drops. Using the above, a ship with 21 shields out of 24 that receives a -5 Shields Critical has to drop its shields to 19 (starting shields of 24 - 5), not 16 (current damage down to 21-5!). If it then takes 4 more damage the shield score drops to 15 but with a maximum of 19.

Boosts drop at the end of the turn, anyway (I think it gets too complicated to work out how many or if they should immediately drop - reduces BEtS effectiveness quite a lot if they did).

- Criticals reduce your current starting shield score.

No, not your current starting score but your original, design, maximum starting score. See example above.

- BEtS usues your original starting shield score.

Yes. I prefer to call it design shield score to avoid the "turn starting" and "game starting" issues we've gotten into!

This means that:
- Criticals only really have an effect if you happen to take an unlucky critical through shields.
- Even on shields 6 critical, you can BEtS to gain shields for a turn (as only you current starting shield score is set to 0).

Not sure what you mean by the first but _shield_ criticals really do have an affect as the baseline on which they work reduces each time. BEtS can be used every turn but it hampers the ship somewhat (no reload, no tractors, no high-speed turns, no launch suicide shuttles, no cloak...).

The second is a different question entirely and I think it comes from confusing current maximum shield score (19 from the above example) and the current shield score (e.g. 15 after damage). The question is really "Can I use BEtS when my shields have been criticalled down to 0". I suspect the "Shields down to 0" in the Criticals Table should have been phrased differently to be more clear. :shrug: Judging by the similar question in the "Wierd Situations" as regards Crippled Ships, the answer is probably no - you can't - but you're right, it doesn't read like that!

Opinion: The description of Shields Criticals 5 and 6 reads "Shields Down" and "Shields Offline" as well as "Shields to 0". To me that just reads no shields at all: BEtS is boosting no shield capability so cannot be used. I'll certainly admit the wording is confusing, but then it wasn't written in competition-rules speak!

:whew:

I think you are certainly right that we need a definitive ruling in this area before more competitions are held.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Ummm, in hoping this is not a troll I'll answer from what I understand and got.

So, if I understand this right:
- Hits reduce your current shield score.

No. They reduce your current maximum shield score. If your current shield score, without boost, is higher than this then it drops. Using the above, a ship with 21 shields out of 24 that receives a -5 Shields Critical has to drop its shields to 19 (starting shields of 24 - 5), not 16 (current damage down to 21-5!). If it then takes 4 more damage the shield score drops to 15 but with a maximum of 19.

Boosts drop at the end of the turn, anyway (I think it gets too complicated to work out how many or if they should immediately drop - reduces BEtS effectiveness quite a lot if they did).

Say what now? Whenever we play at Mongoose, hits have reduced current shield score. Example: you're attacked by 6 AD of phasers, roll the dice, take 4 hits on shields, and 1 hit bypassing to hull. If that's coming off maximum shield score, what's even the point of having a current shield score in the first place?

- Criticals reduce your current starting shield score.

No, not your current starting score but your original, design, maximum starting score. See example above.

- BEtS usues your original starting shield score.

Yes. I prefer to call it design shield score to avoid the "turn starting" and "game starting" issues we've gotten into!

From the FAQ: Criticals reduce your starting score. If you've taken 2 -5 Shield crits on a Fed Dreadnought, it has a "starting" score of 28 (down from the original 38).
You say that Matt uses the pre-damage starting score for BEtS. This means that even though the above Dreadnought now has a "starting" score of 28, BEtS is using the original (pre-damage) starting score of 38.

Hence we now have 2 different starting scores in use: the current starting score (affected by critical damage), and original starting score (what it was before the critical damage).

This means that:
- Criticals only really have an effect if you happen to take an unlucky critical through shields.
- Even on shields 6 critical, you can BEtS to gain shields for a turn (as only you current starting shield score is set to 0).

Not sure what you mean by the first but _shield_ criticals really do have an affect as the baseline on which they work reduces each time. BEtS can be used every turn but it hampers the ship somewhat (no reload, no tractors, no high-speed turns, no launch suicide shuttles, no cloak...).

I'm not getting how you mean here.
You've already said that Matt's saying to use the pre-damage starting score, so criticals won't affect your BEtS boost amount.
The chances of taking a critical reducing your starting shields before you've actually taken that amount of shield damage is slim anyway, hence the unlucky critical comment.
The only other way I can see a shield critical affecting the game is that it will mean that you get to keep less of your shields if you do BEtS and the enemy doesn't happen to wipe the extra shield points out anyway.

The second is a different question entirely and I think it comes from confusing current maximum shield score (19 from the above example) and the current shield score (e.g. 15 after damage). The question is really "Can I use BEtS when my shields have been criticalled down to 0". I suspect the "Shields down to 0" in the Criticals Table should have been phrased differently to be more clear. :shrug: Judging by the similar question in the "Wierd Situations" as regards Crippled Ships, the answer is probably no - you can't - but you're right, it doesn't read like that!

Opinion: The description of Shields Criticals 5 and 6 reads "Shields Down" and "Shields Offline" as well as "Shields to 0". To me that just reads no shields at all: BEtS is boosting no shield capability so cannot be used. I'll certainly admit the wording is confusing, but then it wasn't written in competition-rules speak!

If it gets ruled that BEtS uses the predamage starting score, "Shields to 0" has no effect on the boost lever due to it still being a damage result that merely reduces the starting score. In this situation, the damage chart is missing an entire damage result of "No boosting of shield levels permitted".

:whew:

I think you are certainly right that we need a definitive ruling in this area before more competitions are held.

Definitely. This is getting complicated enough without then having to try and explain it in the middle of a tourny.

 

[scoutdad]

So, if I understand this right:

- Hits reduce your current shield score.

Correct:
Your Federation CA has been reduced to 21 shield boxes and you take 3 more hits. This reduces your current shield score to 18.

- Criticals reduce your current starting shield score.

Correct.
Your CA, now at 18 shield boxes takes a Dilithium Chamber critical (its first BTW) and loses 5 shields. This drops the "starting" shield score to 19. This means yoiu current have 18 shield boxes active out of 19 possible.

- BEtS usues your original starting shield score.

On turn two, you use BEtS and roll 2d6. You get a 2 and a 3 for 5 points.
Your shileds are now at 24 again, with hte boost. If you take no damage on this turn - the shields drops to 19 at the end of hte turn... your current, maximum shield level.

 

[Greg Smith]

So, if I understand this right:
- Hits reduce your current shield score.
- Criticals reduce your current starting shield score.
- BEtS usues your original starting shield score.

Hmm. That isn't the way we play it. We only have two shield scores to track - starting and current.

That said, until the FAQ we assumed the -5 to shields was applied to the current score.

This means that:
- Criticals only really have an effect if you happen to take an unlucky critical through shields.
- Even on shields 6 critical, you can BEtS to gain shields for a turn (as only you current starting shield score is set to 0).

I concur.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Hmm. That isn't the way we play it. We only have two shield scores to track - starting and current.

That said, until the FAQ we assumed the -5 to shields was applied to the current score.

Pretty much what I was thinking too before this thread. Having starting and current scores is fair enough. The having 2 different types of starting score to worry about in different situations? Down that path lies madness and arguments

 

[Greg Smith]

The having 2 different types of starting score to worry about in different situations? Down that path lies madness and arguments

What do we call them:

Current shields
Starting shields
Current Starting shields? :twisted:

 

[Halfbat]

Hits reduce....

I think I misread this as critical hits... Hits DO reduce your current score - thanks for pointing it out Greg. It's criticals that reduce your starting score.

In this case, my example was right! It was the missing and misunderstood word "critical" that was wrong. My sincere apologies for any further confusion, especially to nekomatu... .

----
The example is still straightforward. The issue is around BEtS and extra shields and recharge from 0.

Agreed: As stated, the RAW implies you can recharge from "Shields Down to 0", though it does sound cheesy. I don't think this was intended.

Also in the FAQ, shields should be reduced to the new maximum level if a critical is taken. Reading it as written which as a judge/ref you'd have to) this means that you should also lose all extra shields from BEtS (read it, it's true!). I don't think this was intended, too!*

Whilst the critical says reduce it now, I agree that means we have 4 shield levels to track (and I've suggested names :wink: ) :

1. Design Maximum [originally one of the starting] Shield level - Used for BEtS dice and which remains constant.
   However, this "starting shields" level is reduced by criticals. This is easy as we know it to start with.
2. Current Maximum shield level [also referred to as 'starting' but different] - Initially the same level as Design Maximum it is the level shields drop to (currently) immediately when reduced by criticals (but see BEtS comment below!), or (ii) at the end of a turn if (BEtS) has been used.
3. Bonus Boosted shields above Current Maximum - so that when the shields are reduced from a critical the whole effect of BEtS isn't removed (as the rules state!). But would you reduce BEtS by 5 anyway? *
4. Current shield level - from damage...

I agree that it is way too messy, potentially contradictory and not in the spirit of ACTA:SF. I only raised the thread 'cos I was getting annoyed with the issues with shields and saw contradictions.

Possible Resolutions
Part of the issue comes from phrasing, part from BEtS phrasing, part from BEtS going above the "starting" (read Current Maximum :lol: ) shield score and part of the issue from damage. Possible paths to solutions are (and please do comment!):

• A very simple way to fix it would be to NOT allow BEtS to exceed Current Maximum shield score and effectively turn it into "Recharge Shields". All we'd have to track is Current Maximum and Current Shields, BUT this would really muck up the advantage and effect of BEtS on high recharge level ships.
• Damage reduction due to Current Maximum shields score is only carried out in the End Phase, not immediately during a turn. Excessive shields are also only reduced then, as now. The rule as it stands (reduce now!) is a major cause of the problems as it ruins BEtS use.
• The critical effect "Shields down to 0" is clarified and clearly stated as affecting "Current Maximum" .
• Either:
  • shield recharge levels are based on Current Maximum (so 0 means no Recharge dice! , or
  • shield levels remain based on Design Maximum and a special case is stated that no BEtS can be used when Current Maximum is at 0
  Come what may it cannot be based on any variation of current shield level!

I think the latter three are needed to clarify and clear up the confusion for tournament games and for a common understanding.

Matt/Rulesmasters, help!

-----------
* We've been tracking this already and it gets messy and annoying on ships with high recharge levels. What happens when you take critical damage to shields but your boosted shields have not yet been reduced to the Current Maximum shield level.
EDIT: Mucked up lists, clarified solutions