ACTA / SF - SFB/FC ship conversion issues

Da Boss

Mongoose
Rather than cluttering up numerous threads with thoughts on how or why things have not translated in your opionion over to ACTA:SF correctly from either SFB or FC can I suggest that you please jot down your issues here

Its worth remembering however that

1) the Primary source was apparently FC not SFB
2) That some rules had to be changed for ACTA in order for the game to continue to work

thanks
 
So if myself and my group have not had the great pleasure of acquainting ourselves with either SFB or FC is any of this hyper-longwided nitpickery,concerning the details of how fictitious technology converts game wise form rules to rules (or fails to do so), going to ad or detract from the enjoyment of the game. Or must we now be saddled with the avalanche of opinions and analtude that would rival the most obsessive competofreak,numberbashing,40k nerd?

Just saying....there seems to be a sudden explosion of joy destroying geek angst concerning how something works in one entirely different game compared to another.
 
IraShaine1972 said:
Or must we now be saddled with the avalanche of opinions and analtude that would rival the most obsessive competofreak,numberbashing,40k nerd?

You're a wonderful person too. :roll:

Just saying...
 
It's always amusing when those who know nothing about a subject complain about those who don't.

OK, snark mode off.

Comparisons with 40k seem a little odd since as I understand it that system regularly receives 'new editions' while the SFU hasn't had one since 1990. This game, it's empires and it's ships have a longer and more stable backstory than some small emergent nations.

Any game that's been that successful for that long must be doing something right in terms of balancing it's various factions. Having seen what happened in some previous game conversions, I think it's understandable there's a desire on the part of players who care about the SFU that this is done properly. If it isn't, that'll be a huge opportunity missed to the detriment of ACTA:SF and it's long-term prospects.

Some players are very excited by the appearance of our favourite fictional universe in a new format. Some things were done in a certain way in the SFU, often for a good reason, and we'd like to see that reflected in ACTA.

I'm offering no apologies for that.
 
For what it's worth, this is not the only game system to undergo such scrutiny; Majestic 12's work on the Starmada adaptation (which also uses FC as its primary source of conversion) has also been subject to errata; though given the high profile of the joint venture, things have been far more vocal in that regard.


For those who aren't familiar with the setup, ADB and MJ12 made an agreement a couple of years ago, in which the latter would produce a SFU adaptation of their Starmada game engine, while the former would print the books and distribute them. As with the first ACtA:SF release, the books so far in this product line are keyed to Federation Commander releases (and Squadron Boxes); the ships from the first two FC modules (Klingon Border and Klingon Attack) are in Klingon Armada, while they and the ships from Romulan Armada (which itself is culled from Romulan Border and Romulan Attack for FC) are combined in A Call to Arms: Star Fleet.

Indeed, if you've noticed from the product entries for the various Starline 2500 Squadron Boxes, this built-in commonality is explicitly mentioned:

The Squadron Boxes are designed for use with any game set in the Star Fleet Universe, including A Call to Arms: Star Fleet, Star Fleet Battles, Federation Commander, and Starmada.
So Starmada fans can go out and spend money on Mongoose's resin miniatures, even if they are not planning on using them for ACtA:SF, just as SFB and FC players (who may also not plan on playing this new game) can. Starline 2500 can be in demand for four games' worth of miniature collectors all at the same time!


But to get back to the errata thing, let me give one recent example. Earlier in 2011, the Distant Armada supplement was released, adding the Lyrans and Hydrans (and WYN and LDR) to that game engine. Unfortunately, four of the ships that were supposed to be listed in the book were accidentally left out of the published version; these four ships were subsequently made available for free download here. However, the card for the Lyran Cave Lion Battleship had a few too many phasers, and a few too few disruptors, compared to the FC Ship Card used as its basis; so MJ12's Daniel Kast promptly adjusted the file, and now the one you see online has the correct weapons suite.


The case of the Starmada adaptation is a useful one to consider. When it first got underway (and in so doing arguably pioneering the kind of conversion process which A Call to Arms: Star Fleet represents) those of us who have been more familiar with ADB's in-house game systems could readily see that it would be its own thing; the very nature of the core Starmada game engine (which is probably closer to ACtA than to either FC or SFB) would make that inevitable. That said, it was still important to make sure that though there would be changes in how things would work, that the "soul" of the Star Fleet Universe setting would be carried over in those aspects where consistency with its sister game engines would be expected.

None of this is to say that the way in which Starmada re-envisions the SFU has to work out the exact same way as ACtA:SF does; far from it. Rather, both will of course do the things they are each best at, but should still show some of the core elements that each adaptation carries over from the shared source material.


And this issue of consistency is a key one; arguably a lot more than ACtA players might be used to from either B5 or NA.

In the case of B5, by the time Mongoose acquired that particular license, Babylon 5 Wars had already run its course; while there were doubtless many B5W veterans who came into B5:ACtA hoping to see its legacy carried over in the new game, there wasn't the same impetus to try and remain faithful to the older (and more intricate) game system. Similarly, the original Noble Armada from Holistic Design is at something of a remove from ACtA:NA; but other than the need to keep things straight with the original IP holder (who would presumably want to keep an eye to how Mongoose and RedBrick handle the tabletop and RPG aspects of their Fading Suns universe respectively) there seems to be less of an onus to remain consistent with things from the older tabletop game.

Unlike either of those cases, however, ADB's own stable of in-house games are still very much a going concern; as is MJ12's efforts (which should see changes next year, with an inbound revision of the Starmada ruleset). When the first wave of Starline 2500 designs were offered for scrutiny, it was very important to make sure the designs were consistent with the setting; or rather, that any innovations in design features didn't come at the expense of, say, blocking a certain ship's firing arcs, or pushing the item too close to the non-licensed Franchise material for comfort. There are four games' worth of would-be collectors waiting to buy these miniatures; they had to be viable for all of them.

(Arguably, I'd say the range of minis is all the better for the efforts which were put in during the development process; contributors like Will McCammon rightly deserve praise for the skill and effort they put into helping refine Robert and Sandrine's drafts into the finalised designs.)


Ultimately, I think it's going to be an ongoing learning curve on these boards, in terms of trying to work out a balance between those coming over from the ADB online community and their new colleagues here on the Mongoose forum. We may be used to different ways of doing things (or as SVC puts it, "different corporate cultures"), but we hopefully all want the same thing going forward; for the joint venture between ADB and Mongoose to be all it can be.

It seems like we are still working on that; but Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
Nerroth said:
In the case of B5, by the time Mongoose acquired that particular license, Babylon 5 Wars had already run its course; while there were doubtless many B5W veterans who came into B5:ACtA hoping to see its legacy carried over in the new game,

Oh yes. There were those who would tell you exactly what a weapon was based on the colour of a beam from the TV show.

When Mongoose redid and Runequest and Traveller there were quite a few fans who were overprotective of their favourite game (which is a polite way of putting it).

It is kind of fun to stand on the sidelines and watch. :twisted:
 
Greg Smith said:
Nerroth said:
In the case of B5, by the time Mongoose acquired that particular license, Babylon 5 Wars had already run its course; while there were doubtless many B5W veterans who came into B5:ACtA hoping to see its legacy carried over in the new game,

Oh yes. There were those who would tell you exactly what a weapon was based on the colour of a beam from the TV show.

When Mongoose redid and Runequest and Traveller there were quite a few fans who were overprotective of their favourite game (which is a polite way of putting it).

It is kind of fun to stand on the sidelines and watch. :twisted:

What, you mean their sphincters puckered right up and they said "you're going to do WHAT to MY game"? :shock:

GalagaGalaxian said:
IraShaine1972 said:
Or must we now be saddled with the avalanche of opinions and analtude that would rival the most obsessive competofreak,numberbashing,40k nerd?

You're a wonderful person too. :roll:

Just saying...
Something else came to mind, but in the interest of civility on the BBS I won't utter it.
 
I don't want to descend into Memory Alpha levels of sperging but there are some issues with the conversion, and I think the damage score calculation and it's inconsistent application is at the heart of a few of them.

The Klingon E4 and F5. The E4 has 6 hull boxes in SFB, the F5 has 7. They both have damage 12, even though the F5 is mentioned in the fluff text as the largest frigate in the galaxy. The Kzinti frigate has 18 damage (9 hull boxes in SFB) and the Tholian PC has 14 damage (7 hull boxes). By that logic the F5 should have 14 damage.

However taking a further step back and looking at the conversion from first principles I would have based the damage score on the total number of boxes on the SSD.

E4 - 37 boxes
F5 - 50 boxes
Kzinti FF - 47 boxes
Tholian PC - 39 boxes
Orion LR - 33 boxes
Snipe-B - 28 + 3 armour
Federation FFG - 45 boxes
Gorn FF - 42 boxes

SFB does establish the F5 as the biggest frigate and this is reflected in the fluff text. Basing the calculation on hull boxes gives some odd results. If the damage score had been total number of boxes divided by 3.5 would have given this.

E4 - 11
F5 - 14
Kzinti FF - 13
Tholian PC - 11
Orion LR - 9
Snipe-B - 8 + armour trait
Federation FFG - 13
Gorn FF - 12

This gives the F5 as the biggest frigate, and has a little more variation in damage scores between fleets.

Also freighter damage scores are ridiculous.

Current freighter damage scores

Small Freighter - 58
Large Freighter - 116
Free Trader - 32

Number of SSD boxes

Small Freighter - 40
Large Freighter - 76
Free Trader - 37

Dividing that by 3.5

Small Freighter - 11
Large Freighter - 22
Free Trader - 11

Which give values far more appropriate to the levels of damage they can take and the relative size of the ships in the background and as scale miniatures.

This is all something I pulled out of my ass in 15 minutes, and please bear in mind my job is looking at information, usually numbers, and spotting inconsistencies and challenging the basis that the numbers were generated from. I'm not sperging, honest.
 
Must admit that all seems pretty logical - I did think the damage for the civi ships was a bit mad - just assumed it was a SFU thing.

maybe they should have got you involved in the process :)
 
I probably should have emailed Matt and offered to help.

I was involved in battlefield evolution and sent Matt a billion emails about that, so he might just cry in the corner whenever he sees one of my missives in his inbox now.

The other thing is I commute now and don't have a lot of time for playing games, so I'm not a brilliant choice for a limited number of playtesting slots.
 
Reposted from elsewhwere.


Compared to FC & SFB,

Edit for clarity - points 1 to 5 refer to Kzinti ships.

1) The Kzinti Battlecruiser has lost two T arc Phaser-1s

2) NCA & CM have had their Phaser-1 arcs reduced (should be one AD each FS, FP, PH & SH)

3) The DW has had her T arc Phaser-3s turned into Phaser-1s.

4) The CL is lacking labs and tractors.

5) The FF should have a range-15 disruptor.

And for everyone else...

6) The Romulan Sparrowhawk's damage stat of 30/10 seems way out of line - more than a Firehawk?

7) The Klingon F5 is missing labs and tractors.

8.) The Phaser-2s on the C8 DN should be range-12, not 18.

9) Romulan KF5R should not have Anti-drones.

10) The Orion SALs option mounts should be 1AD each, not two.
 
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