[ACTA:SF] Brainstorming about X-Ships

[billclo]

I realize this discussion is really premature, but I figure it's been pretty slow around here lately. What I wanted to talk about is what do you think X-Ships ought to look like if they were ever to be added to the game?

I was thinking about just including regular X-Ships, and not bother with the partial-X refits. I stopped playing SFB before the XP refits came out, and as such I don't know much about them.

General attributes the ships ought to have, I think:
Fast Trait.
Better shield Boost (increase shield boost by one die).
Shields are immune to a natural "6" penetrating them.
Higher shield values.
A +1 added to all weapons fire due to superior fire control/electronics.
Perhaps increase range and Killzone of phasers. Possibly Phaser-1s may fire as Gatling Phasers against seeking weapons.
Photons now automatically reload themselves and no longer require the Reload Special Action.
That's about all for now, unless I think of something else.

 

[Ben2]

I wouldn't go quite so far.

Fast - definitely.
I'd create new phaser profiles for the X phasers, along with rules for splitting and overloading them.
Regarding leaky shields, give X ships a 4+ save against leaks, make the save and the hit goes against the shield.

Regarding reloads, I'd actually go with a new less serious version of Energy Drain for X ships. They still have to reload, but the penalties for doing so are not as severe.

Or even, and this would make them really good, have X ships able to take 2 special actions per turn (even two energy drain special actions for full energy drain effects), so an X ship can reload and go all power to engines in the same turn, etc.

You don't want to go too rules heavy, so ideally something that can be covered in a single side of A4.

 

[Nerroth]

Just a quick note for anyone who has Module X1 but not Module X1R; the rules governing the use of Alpha Octant X-ships have been significantly revised through various errata items, that were first published in CL23, have more recently been presented in X1R, but are also in this file.

(For example, the overloaded phaser thing has gone away entirely.)

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For those of you who aren't familiar with the X-ship concept; the SFU has two generations of starship design which come after the "modern" (Tech Level 12, in GURPS Prime Directive terms) level you see in the game at present.

The first-generation X-ships (at TL13) are the ones published in X1 and X1R; for the most part, they are advanced technology upgrades of "modern" ships with new engines, more powerful weapons, and more advanced support systems.

The second-generation X-ships (at TL15; TL14 is more or less skipped by the SFU empires indigenous to the Alpha Octant) are ones designed and built from the keel up to incorporate advanced technology; those ships will eventually be seen once the time comes for SFB Module X2 to be published.

Originally, the first X-ships in the Alpha Octant, like the Federation Vincennes-class CX and the Klingon DX, were designed to fight each other; however, as it turned out, what they really ended up being used for was to help fight the Andromedans. (Reportedly, the same thing will happen in the X2 era; the second-generation X-ships start to emerge in Y205, while the grand invasion from the distant Xorkaelian Empire won't kick off until Y210.)

So far, the first-gen X-ships are only in SFB (tactically, though their presence is accounted for in Federation and Empire's Advanced Operations module); they may or may not be brought over to FC at some later point.

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Rules-wise, I would suggest that fast-loading of a weapon should have the kind of limitations added to the errata file; so, a fast-load photon only increases its warhead by 50% instead of being doubled, while future multi-turn weapons (like the PPD) would have their range reduced to 15" when fast-loaded.

For the more advanced plasmas, they are noted as having the Sabot refit; so any M- or L-torps should have their range increased from 16 to 20 inches (which would make the Energy Bleed drop-offs at 10 and 15 hexes respectively).

 

[Rambler]

X phasers got nerfered iirc you can no longer overload them but can burst fire them as 2 Phaser3s.

They not only have the mentioned +1 to hit non X-ships but also are -1 to be hit by non X-ships.

Leave the power drain rules as they are but give them the ability to give up the fast trait to counter one power drain.

Don't forget the Advanced Bridge Trait. And I think using 2 special actions is only fair these are advance tech warships after all.

As billco said Xphotons and Xplasmas lose the reload trait but disruptor ships gain 50% more disruptors.

 

[Nerroth]

A first pass at the base stats for the two iconic first-gen X-ships; the Fed CX and Klingon DX.

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ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY COMMAND CRUISER - 320 POINTS (CX)

In Y181, the Gettysburg-class heavy command cruiser USS Vincennes was converted to use technology designed to improve its combat power. The experiment was only partly successful, but led to the production of ten more ships of this type (one every year until Y193) after which production increased. Production of Kirov-class battlecruisers was eventually terminated once the X-design proved itself.

These ships, being more powerful than heavy cruisers, formed the core of battle groups during the final days of the General War, and during the Andromedan War. One of these ships, the NCC-1776 Bunker Hill, led the Federation task force during Operation Unity. As these ships were revolutionary, they were named for battles in various revolutions.

Ships of the Class: NCC-1749 Vincennes, NCC-1771 Revolution, NCC-1776 Bunker Hill, others.

Turn: 6
Shields: 32
Damage: 32/11
Marines: 8
Craft: 4 Advanced Shuttles
Traits: Command +1, Enhanced Bridge, Fast, Labs 8, Tractor Beam 2, Transporter 3

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Phaser-1 18 FH 4 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 PH 3 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 SH 3 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 T 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Photon Torpedoes 15 F 4 Devastating +1, Multihit 4, Reload
Advanced Drones 48 T 2 Devastating +1, Multihit D6+3, Seeking

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ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY BATTLECRUISER - 330 POINTS (DX)

Technically an upgrade of the D7W heavy command cruiser, the Klingons produced a few first-generation X-ships like this before the end of the General War, the first in Y181; more were produced during the Andromedan War. One of these, the Kumerian, led the Klingon contingent during Operation Unity.

Ships of the Class: Korath, Kumerian, Kahless, others.

Turn: 4
Shields: 32
Damage: 22/8
Marines: 12
Craft: 2 Advanced Shuttles
Traits: Agile, Command +1, Enhanced Bridge, Fast, Labs 4, Tractor Beam 5, Transporter 7

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Phaser-1 18 F, P, S 3 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 PH 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 SH 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 A, P 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 A, S 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Disruptors 24 F 6 Accurate +1, Multihit 2
Advanced Drones 48 T 2 Devastating +1, Multihit D6+3, Seeking

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The above is more of a step-by-step thing; just to give a sense of what the basic look of the ship would be before you start feeding in various special rules.

Just a quick note; I wasn't sure what way to handle the DX's shield value. The #2 shield has 36 boxes; but with the double-front rule, I went with the #3 shield (30 boxes) instead. Although, there's no guarantee that either are what they should be, so.

EDIT: I added in the advanced drones, as seen on the Fed GSX in a later post.

 

[billclo]

As I recall, when a First Gen X-ship reloaded Photons, it had a choice; fast load them as standard loads and be able to fire them this turn (allowing the ship to fire standard Photons every turn), or fast overload them with a chance of a detonation in the launch tube if you went for full or near-full overload (or after it leaves the tube), or standard arming and overload over 2 turns.

So I'd say remove the Reload trait, and allow firing of standard Photons every turn like a disruptor, BUT if you want to overload it, there has to be some sort of penalty to that (to be determined). I'd say to be safe, increase a fast-overloaded Photon to Multhit 6 (vice 8 for a full overload). You'd have the choice of using the Reload action, followed by the overload action in a future turn without penalty like a regular ship or fast-firing an overload that is Multihit 6.

I'm liking the idea of giving up the Fast trait for the turn to negate a power drain. These ships tend to be overpowered anyways, as I recall.

Advanced bridge, definitely. Consider the ship to have crew Quality 5 perhaps?

I forgot about the X-Ship having a -1 to be hit, so include that.

Shield leak, while a saving roll might be more "realistic", it's going to slow down the game making all those rolls.

Phasers, last I heard they could be overloaded and fired with 50% more damage done or as a Phaser-G. Since that got changed, I'll leave the phasers as is.

****edited to reflect the errata Nerroth pointed me towards ***

 

[Nerroth]

According to the errata, the misfire rules are gone:

(XE1.25) Misfire: All rules pertaining to weapons misfires are deleted; all references to such rules are to be ignored. NOTE: Players found the misfire rules make the game a frustrating die-rolling contest where tactics and strategy were irrelevant, only avoiding a misfire die roll mattered, and there was nothing one could do to avoid it. In place of this penalty, fast-loaded heavy weapons are limited to a range of 15 (even if held to a later turn), reflecting their instability.

And in the specific case of photons, the errata states:

(XE4.5) Fast Load Photons: Warhead strength of a fast-loaded photon is limited to 12, but there is no chance of discharge or misfire. Fast Load Photons are limited to a range of 15. Note that a 9-point warhead is still an overload and is still limited to range 8.

So in ACtA:SF terms, the fast-load would be the same range anyway; but would "only" up its damage by 50%, instead of doubling as with a standard two-turn overload.

And as for EW:

(XD6.34) EW Effect: Due to their advanced fire control, if an X-ship has more ECCM than its target’s ECM, it gets a special -1 modifier to its fire. This modifier obeys all rules relating to negative shifts (i.e., it may not cause a column shift for a phaser). This is cumulative with legendary gunner but not with an outstanding crew.

(XD6.393) EW Limit: X-ships no longer receive two “free” ECCM. Instead, they may generate EW (total ECM and/or ECCM) up to their sensor rating plus two.

 

[billclo]

Thanks Nerroth, read the errata. Much has changed since I last played SFB in the early '90s. :shock:

 

[Nerroth]

All the more reason why it's worth keeping an eye out for the other SFB errata files when discussion threads like this one pop up.

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One more sample ship to help work the plasmas out; the "Fire-Axe".

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ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY FIREHAWK - 370 POINTS (FHX)

First developed in Y182, the "Fire-Axe" was the most numerically significant Romulan X-ship; since hulls of this type were in production, and it was large enough to make full use of the technology. The powerful K-modules were hard-welded to the hull, but no additional phasers could be added to them since the hulls were already at their design limits. While no more powerful than the K7X (based on the K7R battlecruiser), it had the advantage of being built as new construction, as opposed to solely being conversions of older Klingon-built hulls.

Ships of the Class: Praetor Maximus, Admiral Marcus, Capitalus Romulus, others.

Turn: 4
Shields: 34
Damage: 32/11
Marines: 12
Craft: 4 Advanced Shuttles
Traits: Cloak, Enhanced Bridge, Fast, Labs 2, Tractor Beam 2, Transporter 3

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Phaser-1 18 F, P, S 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 F, P 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 F, S 2 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 A, P, S 1 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 A, P 1 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 A, S 1 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 PH 1 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Phaser-1 18 SH 1 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 8, Precise
Plasma Torpedo-S (Sabot) 20 F, P 4 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking
Plasma Torpedo-S (Sabot) 20 F, S 4 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking
Plasma Torpedo-M 20 FH 5 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking
Plasma Torpedo-M 20 FH 5 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking

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I added the Sabot (speed-40) adjustment to the port and starboad S-torps, and assumed that the M-torp would be using sabots as standard.

 

[billclo]

Okay, so here's the revised proposal:

X-Ships ships get the Fast trait. If they voluntarily give up the Fast Trait for the turn, they may negate a power drain special action penalty.

They get the Advanced Bridge trait, which gives the ship a +1 to fire against other ships (this does not turn a die roll of a 5 into a 6, allowing shield burnthrough). All ships firing at the X-Ship have a -1 penalty due to the X-ships superior electronics and jamming capabilities. This is cumulative with the -1 penalty if the X-Ship uses the Evasive Action Special Action.

The ship also is considered to have Crew Quality 5.

Shields are immune to shield burnthrough. For those who insist on more realism, roll a die for each weapon that rolls a natural "6" burnthrough and on a roll of 4+ the burnthrough hits the shield instead. A roll of 1,2 or 3 means the burnthrough still occurred.

If the ship uses the Boost Shields Action, increase the number of dice rolled by one, to reflect increased power available and more efficient ship's batteries.

Photon torpedoes may be fired every turn as a standard Photon torpedo with no penalties and no Reload Special Action needed. Photons may be fast-overloaded by using the Overload Special Action. They have the same range as a regular overloaded torpedo, and the warhead is MultiHit6 instead of 8. The ship will not require a turn of using the Reload action and then the Overload action on a subsequent turn. Ie, you may fire the torpedoes on turn 1, fast-overload them and use them on turn 2. Alternatively the X-ship may use the Reload special action and on a subsequent turn use an Overload Special Action as other ships do to fire normal Overloaded torpedoes.

Disruptor armed ships increase the number of Disruptors by 50%.

Plasma ships, I'll let someone else handle those as I am not so familiar with them.
X-drones, same thing.

 

[Da Boss]

The need to "look" different as well if they are going to be next gen ships - otherwise why bother.

If the wepaons are much better

Make Phasers multihit and linger range
Make Heavy Disruptors longer range / devestating

etc

my first gen "xships" look somehting like this .....

F'ula (FireHawk) Class Warship 400pts
The FireHawk was designed to provide the Romulans with a pure warship - based on the second generation SparrowHawk, the FireHawk was a powerful and deadly, and the match for almost anything that it could encounter.

Turn: 4, Shields: 40, Damage: 25/6, Marines: 3, Craft: 2 Fighters,
Traits: Agile, Cloak, Enhanced Bridge, Labs 6, Probe 3, Tractor Beam 3, Transporter 2

Phaser 1R 24" FH 4 Accurate +2, Kill Zone 10, Precise,
Plamsa Torp D 16" F 1 Devastating, Energy Bleed, Fighter-Killer, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking
Plasma RA 20" F 7 Devastating, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking,
Plasma RA 20" F 7 Devastating, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking,
Plasma R 16" A 7 Devastating, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking,
Phaser 3A 6" PH 4 Accurate+2, Fighter-Killer, Kill Zone 2, Precise
Phaser 3A 6" SH 4 Accurate+2, Fighter-Killer, Kill Zone 2, Precise

 

[Nerroth]

Just to clarify, the first-gen X-ships already exist in SFB; the focus is more on trying to see how well the existing ships (and post-errata rules) can be ported over, rather than cook up entirely new ones.

(I've added a first pass at the "Fire-Axe" from Module X1 to my last post.)

That said, I do hope that the X2 ships, once we see them, really will have a "new" look to them; the Vincennes-class is nice as a final evolution of the Constitution-class hull, but I would hope that its second-generation successor will have a new, distinct look to it.

 

[Da Boss]

That said, I do hope that the X2 ships, once we see them, really will have a "new" look to them; the Vincennes-class is nice as a final evolution of the Constitution-class hull, but I would hope that its second-generation successor will have a new, distinct look to it.

I like to imagine beyond the normal realms but there you go....

The Vicennes and the Klingon equivalent are nice enough but def if there are to be true new generation of ships, IMO they need to be strikingly different else its just the same old same old with a few new guns..........

 

[billclo]

I added the Sabot (speed-40) adjustment to the port and starboad S-torps, and assumed that the M-torp would be using sabots as standard.

For those of us who do not have the X-ship plasma material, can you sum up the changes, specifically the increased range and damage abilities of X-Plasma?

 

[Nerroth]

There are two things going on in the Y180s; the general Sabot refits (shown in SFB Module R10) and the rules for X-plasma (from X1, and as modified by the errata).

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Sabot is a refit that allows X (and non-X) plasma to be able go to speed-40, instead of speed-32. (As noted in the errata, X-ships are assumed to have the sabot refit as standard.) So, I was envisioning the sabot torpedoes as having Range 20, instead of Range 16; to represent the 25% increase in speed.

For older launchers on X-ships, such as the S-torps on the "Fire-Axe", I'd simply add a (Sabot) note to the weapon description, and increase the range to 20. For the "X-plasmas" (-M and -L), it can be assumed that they are using the sabot option as standard.

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As for X-plasmas, there are two new loading options for plasma torps, as well as two new launchers (the type-M and type-L).

The fast load option allows launchers larger than an F-torp to be armed (only) as an F-torp in a single turn. Meanwhile, the rapid load option allows for a torp to be given its second and third turn's worth of arming energy in the second turn.

(Since the rapid load still leaves you with a two-turn weapon, you wouldn't gain much in ACtA:SF terms; but the fast-load-as-F may or may not be something to consider.)


As for new warheads, the M-torp is a three-space launcher that produces a 40-point warhead; sitting more or less halfway between an R-torp and and S-torp. The problem here is that since there is a three-point jump between the Attack Dice for R- and S-torps in ACtA:SF, you'd have to either round down (to 5 AD) or up (to 6). Given the Sabot benefit, I figured that 5 was enough for now.

The L-torp is even simpler; essentially, it's a single-space launcher the size of a plasma-F, that can also launch a plasma-G torp. So, all it needs is the Attack Dice of the -G, but with the Range upped to 20 in order to account for the sabot launches.

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One thing to note is that, unlike the CX and DX, the "Fire-Axe" has no Command +1 Trait. This is intentional; the ship, based on the standard FireHawk, has no flag bridge, and has a lower Command Rating in SFB and F&E compared to the other two, each of which are upgraded command cruisers. (The Romulans would eventually come up with an X-tech version of the NovaHawk to use as a fleet flagship; that unit would retain the Command +1 Trait from the "standard" NovaHawk.)

 

[billclo]

So essentially plasmas would now include:
Plasma-L, range 20, 3AD, Devastating +1, Seeking, MultiHitD6, Energy Bleed, Reload.
Plasma-M, range 20, 5AD, Devastating +1, Seeking, MultiHitD6, Energy Bleed, Reload.
Plasma-S (Sabot), range 20, 4AD, Devastating +1, Seeking, MultiHitD6, Energy Bleed, Reload.

That sum it up?

 

[Nerroth]

There would be a Plasma-R (Sabot), too.

EDIT: Looks like there'd be a Plasma-D (Sabot), also; but X-ships don't seem to bother with -F or -G mounts.

Plasma Torpedo-R (Sabot) 20 F, P 7 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking
Plasma Torpedo-D (Sabot) 20 F, P 1 Devastating +1, Energy Bleed, Multihit D6, Reload, Seeking

 

[archon96]

x ships should also have the unique trait.

 

[billclo]

x ships should also have the unique trait.

In Federation and Empire, one can convert existing ships to X-Tech and build them as new construction as well. One scenario I played, the Feds had 4+ Cruiser X-ships running around, and the Klingons had several DX hulls plus Frigate-sized X-ships. It's not unusual to have squadrons of X-War cruisers and X-Frigates, etc...

They tended to be primary targets for directed damage so they died with some regularity.

So I would not say they need to be "unique".

 

[Nerroth]

It might be an idea to split the first-generation X-ships into a seperate "era"; where the idea is to fly X-squadrons against one another (and against the Andromedans).

Between X1 and X1R, there should be enough to fill a module's worth of ships.


(Especially if you add in those dastardly conjectural X-tech Andros from Module C3A; such as that advanced technology Intruder shown on the front cover...)