ACTA: Leshath
- Thread starter Burger
- Start date
Burger said:
Except that msprange agreed with "a) Stealth is reduced to 1+, then +1 for being over 20", and +2 for the asteroids for a final stealth value of 4+ ". Since the +1 for distance is only applied when the roll to beat stealth is made it means that the modifiers to the trait for distance and terrain are applied when you roll to break stealth for each ship (as distance may vary), whereas Scout reduces the base stealth value in the movement phase when the action is carried out.
Then we have to ask what happens if an unstealthed ship successfully uses "run silent" to gain the "Stealth 4+" Trait, then heads into asteroids? Or if the ship starts in a dust cloud and opts to run silent? Which is applied first to grant the trait, and which confers the bonus?
Or if the battle takes place near a world with "Heavy Dust Clouds" and a normally unstealthed ship flees into some nearby asteroids. Using Run Silent.
Ultimately, this is becoming more ambiguous the more I consider it...
LaranosTZ
Mongoose
Well, why don't we look at how the game's timing works.
1. Ships move, declare special actions at this time. So a ship that runs silent would gain stealth at this time if the CQ check was successfull. This happens during the movement phase.
2. After movement, before shooting, you declare scout actions. At this time any stealth reductions due to scouts take place. So, at this point a lesath would reduce the stealth of a ship to 1+.
3. Firing is declared, at this point any -modifiers- to stealth are calculated, since any modifiers only apply to the specific ship that targets the vessel in question. So this means if you are at range 8 or less, -1, at over 20? +1, etc.
The question is, at what phase do you calculate the dust cloud/asteroids modifier. I think Matt's answer was very clear, A. He included the asteroid/dust cloud modifier -after- the lesath reduced stealth, when a ship actually -targets- the stealthed ship in question.
1. Ships move, declare special actions at this time. So a ship that runs silent would gain stealth at this time if the CQ check was successfull. This happens during the movement phase.
2. After movement, before shooting, you declare scout actions. At this time any stealth reductions due to scouts take place. So, at this point a lesath would reduce the stealth of a ship to 1+.
3. Firing is declared, at this point any -modifiers- to stealth are calculated, since any modifiers only apply to the specific ship that targets the vessel in question. So this means if you are at range 8 or less, -1, at over 20? +1, etc.
The question is, at what phase do you calculate the dust cloud/asteroids modifier. I think Matt's answer was very clear, A. He included the asteroid/dust cloud modifier -after- the lesath reduced stealth, when a ship actually -targets- the stealthed ship in question.
Methos5000
Mongoose
But he also said if the ship doesn't have a stealth rating that the Leshath can reduce the stealth a ship gains from terrain.
That's the weird thing we're trying to fix in our heads.
You could look at it as the ship gains the stealth trait at the end of its movement, thus allowing the Leshath to reduce it to 1+, but then it should get the modifier for being in the asteroids/cloud during targeting.
Or it doesn't get affected until it's targeted in which case the Leshath should not affect it.
That idea that both, depending on circumstance, are true make this a case of not a thought out, logical rule of thumb to remember, but a series of case by case situations that need to be memorized. Never a good thing in a game as they will be forgotten at important moments, and/or you end up carrying around a binder that's bigger than the original rules with all the 'situations' that can come and running the checklists.
Ripple
You could look at it as the ship gains the stealth trait at the end of its movement, thus allowing the Leshath to reduce it to 1+, but then it should get the modifier for being in the asteroids/cloud during targeting.
Or it doesn't get affected until it's targeted in which case the Leshath should not affect it.
That idea that both, depending on circumstance, are true make this a case of not a thought out, logical rule of thumb to remember, but a series of case by case situations that need to be memorized. Never a good thing in a game as they will be forgotten at important moments, and/or you end up carrying around a binder that's bigger than the original rules with all the 'situations' that can come and running the checklists.
Ripple
Ripple said:
And I've gone cross-eyed...
To simplify stealth you could assume that all non-stealthed ships counted as having "stealth 1+" so that all modifiers were bonuses/penalties (rather than granting traits). Then scouting would work well, providing a -1 penalty to stealth (or, +1 bonus to the roll however you want to phrase it). For example an unstealthed ship hiding in asteroids (+2) before Scouting (-1) for overall Stealth of 2+.
This would leave, as far as I can see (please correct me if I'm wrong), two exceptions to the general pattern, Run Silent and the Leshath.
Run Silent would have to provide a different bonus for stealthed and non-stealthed ships, to represent the better savings turning off the lights provide for the beacon of an unstealthed ship's emissions compared to the already reduced profile stealthed ships possess.
Then the Leshath's unique ability, which then either goes:
1. up in power vs all ships (if scouting is applied last since it will negate all modifiers)
or
2. down in power vs non-stealthed ships and up vs stealthed vessels (if scouting is applied first, since it will reduce stealthed ships trait to +1 before modifiers).
I suppose the (fluff) question to determine how that goes is, does Scouting represent breaking the electronic countermeasures that hide the ships from sensors (scenario 2), or breaking the electronic countermeasures and compensating for the movements of dust and rocks and how they alter the firing solution (scenario 1)...
At the moment I agree with Ripple's statement, there's a lot of illogical contradictions in Stealth as I see it at the moment.
That wouldn't work. If an unstealthed ship is assumed to have stealth 1+, then a Leshath scouting it would "reduce" it to 1+... then the asteroids take it to 3+. In actuality with current rules, an unstealthed ship would gain 3+ stealth from the asteroids then get reduced to 1+ by the Leshath.The_Mhor said:
