ACTA - I want, I hate, lets adjust

[kodiak888]

My own selfish ideal would be a setting that also lends itself to a matching 1/300 or 1/285 micro-armour game that's similarly affordable and streamlined. Who else wants to play a starship campaign with planetary assaults without breaking the bank?

Check out Firestorm Armada then. They've got a ground combat game in the works for the same universe, Firestorm Invasion or somesuch. I read on their site that they have plans for a 6mm, 15mm, and 28mm miniature line, depending on what but who knows how well any of that will pan out. Their items aren't priced too badly. I'm not a fan of their miniatures, but their rule books have a DIY section so you can use ones you like better as proxies for original fleets, or create some legal alternatives yourself.

 

[tschuma]

I hate Stealth!

Played against the Minbari last night and had a Marathon boresited under 8" to a Tinashii and missed the Stealth check and it was only a 4 at under 8". Grant it I rolled a 3, but 50% for under 8" is a little much.

Just my 2 cents

 

[MongooseMatt]

My own selfish ideal would be a setting that also lends itself to a matching 1/300 or 1/285 micro-armour game that's similarly affordable and streamlined.

Funny you should say that - The Game With No Name might be just what you are looking for.

This is something we have been working on for a while now, and will be previewing next year.

 

[Da Boss]

I hate Stealth!

Played against the Minbari last night and had a Marathon boresited under 8" to a Tinashii and missed the Stealth check and it was only a 4 at under 8". Grant it I rolled a 3, but 50% for under 8" is a little much.

Just my 2 cents

Indeed, chased a Sharlin round an asteroid field at a range of about 6" with a Octurion for three turns never saw it

I tend to think Stealth is fine for the odd rare ship in a fleet but harder to justify in terms of fun for full Stealth fleets.

 

[AdrianH]

Hah! On one occasion my Shadow Ship failed to spot a Sharlin at least three times in a row, and it was also inside 8" plus the Shadows' bonus to break stealth.

Being on the other side of the stealth rolls, I was playing Shadows against Army of Light the other day. The other player is relatively new to the game so I thought I was being nice in a 3 Raid game by taking only two Scouts, trading the third Raid point straight down to six fighters. Not only did he roll very badly for stealth, he also rolled very badly for dogfights. At the start he had two Auroras, two Thunderbolts and a Nial. At the end, I still had five Shadow fighters! Meanwhile, he had got off one good round of shooting and mauled one of the Scouts, after which he kept failing stealth rolls.

Sometimes the dice just hate you. :lol:

 

[Mean Mutton]

I hate Stealth!

Played against the Minbari last night and had a Marathon boresited under 8" to a Tinashii and missed the Stealth check and it was only a 4 at under 8". Grant it I rolled a 3, but 50% for under 8" is a little much.

Just my 2 cents

Indeed, chased a Sharlin round an asteroid field at a range of about 6" with a Octurion for three turns never saw it

I tend to think Stealth is fine for the odd rare ship in a fleet but harder to justify in terms of fun for full Stealth fleets.

Personally, I love seeing the face of a Minbari player when they see you pull out a Gaim fleet. Breeching pods, suicide fighters, energy mines -- what was that stealth thing you were talking about?

Seriously, though, I've found that against the Minbari you really just need a ton of fighters (preferably with an escort ship if you're playing a race that doesn't also have great fighters), a few scouts, and be willing to split your fire so you can make sure that you're hitting something each round.

 

[Digger]

I think a good way to overcome the stealth issue would be instead of making it an all or nothing roll, say if you fail the stealth check you only get half AD rounded down, those with 1 AD miss.

Mind you this would mean they would have to beef up the Minbari ships as they do tend to crumble like egg shells once you are past the stealth! :twisted:

My 2p worth!

 

[tschuma]

Half AD would work, I think. The problem is if you use the Launch Breaching Pods and Shuttles or Stand Down Special Action, you do not need to pass a Stealth Check, so how do you know there is a ship out there?

The thing about the fighters is if the Minbari have an Ashinta, then the Escort reaches out 8" along with the other Anti Fighter, it can be deadly if you don't have a super carrier on the table with 20 plus fighters.

The game was a 4 point Battle Carrier Clash. I was playing EA Crusade and a Posiden was too much. if it was a 5 point Battle, then it would have been on the table.

Any way, Stealth needs to be re-worked.

 

[Digger]

@ tschuma - I agree, stealth needs a rework to make it viable as a new system!

 

[Mean Mutton]

@ tschuma - I agree, stealth needs a rework to make it viable as a new system!

Honestly, I'm not in the "stealth is the great evil" camp. It's not all THAT difficult to get around it.

First, get inside the 8", use scouts, and get fighters to attack it early. When it's time for your capital ships to fire, spread your fire out -- instead of tossing all 10 dice into one stealth-based ship, use 5 dice on each of two.

Even if the ship started with a stealth of 5+, there's a good chance it'll be down to 2+ or 3+. If you're spreading your fire, you're bound to get at least a few hits.

Also, certain other strategies (energy mines, ramming) are pretty effective against stealthy-ships.

But when it comes down to it, the stealthy ships are typically very easy to destroy when you bypass their stealth.

 

[Da Boss]

The Stealth argument has a long long history and has three, to my mind, main aspects

Is it balanced - I would say pretty much yes

Is it true to the show - pretty much

Is it fun - hmm not so much for the player whose dice rolls are not working or whose stealth seems to have failed!

Anyone tried out any games with Half AD rather than no firing? It may be that the Stealth ships need something in recompense - esp the Minbari?

 

[Renny]

Presumably judgment on stealth should be reserved until we learn about the new setting and the role it may or may not play. Big problem in B5 where one of the major races field the technology. I never thought the rule simulated it's use in the show very well, to be fair. In a new setting, maybe not so much. Time will tell.

 

[treknogeek]

I always liked the idea of a failed stealth role being all or nothing, but only for that target. So, I fail on a Minbari ship to my Starboard, if there is another ship in that arc I can attempt to target it after the failed Stealth role.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I always liked the idea of a failed stealth role being all or nothing, but only for that target. So, I fail on a Minbari ship to my Starboard, if there is another ship in that arc I can attempt to target it after the failed Stealth role.

I agree.

"All guns, target that cruiser!

"See, we can't get a lock on the cruiser! But that frigate looks just fine, should we fire at that?"

"Negative! Don't shoot at anything else!

Seriously, a ships systems can easily handle tracking every target on the map, Why can't I fire at ones I actually get a lock on?

 

[Digger]

What annoys me is that you can be right up close, when you could practically see the ship and throw stuff at it, and you fail stealth!

Hell, you could fire the damn things in manual and use line of site through a window if necessary! That's what makes it wrong and not true to life.

So make it say, under 8" you get to roll stealth as normal, but if you fail you get half AD?

 

[madpax]

Half AD would work, I think. The problem is if you use the Launch Breaching Pods and Shuttles or Stand Down Special Action, you do not need to pass a Stealth Check, so how do you know there is a ship out there?

Stealth is not a 'cloaking device' (see SFU). It disrupt the sensors, scanners, radar, etc., but you know there is a ship out there.

Marc

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hell, you could fire the damn things in manual and use line of site through a window if necessary!

Not too many windows on the bridge of an Omega

This is why fighters can bypass Stealth (they _do_ have windows...).

 

[Burger]

Not too many windows on the bridge of an Omega

This is why fighters can bypass Stealth (they _do_ have windows...).

White Stars have windows.
In fact they have better than windows, they have big wibbly 3-D viewscreens...

But I think in 3rd ed you've said that stealth will be limited to just the occasional ship (like scouts in 2e), rather than an entire race? That will pretty much fix the problem IMO. As Da Boss said, stealth is balanced, pretty realistic, but just no fun. If it's lmited to the occasional ship then I think it's fine as it is.

 

[MongooseMatt]

they have big wibbly 3-D viewscreens...

Subject to interference from Stealth technology...

But I think in 3rd ed you've said that stealth will be limited to just the occasional ship (like scouts in 2e), rather than an entire race? That will pretty much fix the problem IMO. As Da Boss said, stealth is balanced, pretty realistic, but just no fun. If it's lmited to the occasional ship then I think it's fine as it is.

They are, and in playtesting it seems to be. You _could_ take an entire fleet of the stealth ships - but you are not going to want to. They have their advantages and are very powerful when used right, but catch them out and they fold quickly. At the current time, the best they have is Stealth 4+, so you just need a scout and close range to bring them to 2+ - not unlikely at all (the stealth ships use their tech to get in close...).

 

[tschuma]

Half AD would work, I think. The problem is if you use the Launch Breaching Pods and Shuttles or Stand Down Special Action, you do not need to pass a Stealth Check, so how do you know there is a ship out there?

Stealth is not a 'cloaking device' (see SFU). It disrupt the sensors, scanners, radar, etc., but you know there is a ship out there.

Marc

Then maybe allow anything but a Beam and Mini-Beam weapon to fire at half AD as suggested. and/or possibly lose the Twin Linked trait.

The thing with the Crusade Fleet is by the time most of those ships were built they should have improved sensors to combat the stealth of the Minbari, not break, just improve things some. The EA did fight a war and got their butts kicked, so you would think the designers would have thought of improving the sensors. Plus the Warlock and Marathon had Shadow tech incorporated in the design. Maybe a +1 to stealth checks?