ACTA - I want, I hate, lets adjust

[McKickaha]

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour. fuel tank, whoomph!
ok i now expect our large military contingent to tell me this ain;t so!

Don't know about that but technically with enough applied kinetic energy doesn't necessarily have to pass the armour since in a previous incarnation I had a role in a test which blew a sherman about 12 ft into the air and although it had zero external penetration damage, never even lost its turret, the witness dummies we had inside were minced as well as most of everything else. So technically a little piece of sympathetic, indirect shrapnel bouncing about inside a cramped metal cage can indeed cause a lot of damage.

 

[Mean Mutton]

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour. fuel tank, whoomph!
ok i now expect our large military contingent to tell me this ain;t so!

Please check out Mythbusters episodes 15 and 38, where they (twice) disprove the idea of a bullet exploding a fuel tank.

 

[H]

Like i'm going to believe two geeky colonials, it happens in every cop show ever made, thats good enough for me ;-)

 

[AdrianH]

the idea of ACTA was always to keep less bookeeping than say SFB, continually adding new condition modifiers kinda kicks that in the knackers, and we may as well all play B5wars in whatever setting Matt has secured a licence for

The other extreme is that you just roll 1D6, on a 6 the ship is destroyed - no bookkeeping, no die modifiers, no complications such as AP, DD or Precise. ACTA is somewhere in between. A die modifier doesn't involve any more bookkeeping (unlike another proposed critical system not far from here in which the effect of a critical hit depends on how many hits of that type the ship has already taken).

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour. fuel tank, whoomph!
ok i now expect our large military contingent to tell me this ain;t so!

That's the good trick, getting the bullet through the armour in the first place. It used to work, which is why anti-tank rifles were invented. It didn't work when armour became thicker, which is why anti-tank rifles became obsolete during WW2. Having said that, a lot of modern armour-piercing ammo is solid - maybe allow AP the same modifier as DD.

 

[katadder]

but in every cop show they also show them popping tyres with pistols and that wouldnt happen either against a moving vehicle. need a shotgun

 

[Burger]

It happens in the Matrix 2 as well, so it must be true.
Shooting padlocks off, that is true as well. That one even happens in serious TV shows.

 

[H]

I always pack a pistol when i'm on site duty, just in case i forget my padlock keys..

and I can't begin to tell you how many times I have my tires shot out in salford, those air rifles are damned good

 

[McKickaha]

[

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour. fuel tank, whoomph!
ok i now expect our large military contingent to tell me this ain;t so!

That's the good trick, getting the bullet through the armour in the first place. It used to work, which is why anti-tank rifles were invented. It didn't work when armour became thicker, which is why anti-tank rifles became obsolete during WW2. Having said that, a lot of modern armour-piercing ammo is solid - maybe allow AP the same modifier as DD.

The projectile doesn't need to penetrate the armour to cause critical internal systems damage. The impact shockwave pases through the metal and causes a scab of metal to come off at high energy from the internal wall of the armour.

With enough kinetic force the shockwave can penetrate very thick armour, hence the invention of Chobham armour which generates a counter shockwave through a shaped charge effect.

Ok rifle bullets can't do it today, but what is the impact force of a 23rd century railgun round?

 

[l33tpenguin]

1) Break the weapons list down a bit
So a broadside would say
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked

Rather than

Heavy Pulse Cannons - 8AD - Twin-Linked

For ACtA, I prefer to keep weapons the way they are.

Otherwise you have a weapons section on a ship like the Nova looking like this:

Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - A - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - A - 2AD - Twin-Linked

A ship like the Primus, Omega or Warlock would look even worse.

 

[AdrianH]

The projectile doesn't need to penetrate the armour to cause critical internal systems damage. The impact shockwave pases through the metal and causes a scab of metal to come off at high energy from the internal wall of the armour.

With enough kinetic force the shockwave can penetrate very thick armour, hence the invention of Chobham armour which generates a counter shockwave through a shaped charge effect.

That works against a vehicle with one or two compartments, e.g. a tank. It won't work as well against a ship several hundred metres long with multiple compartments between the outside wall and the interesting bits.

Ok rifle bullets can't do it today, but what is the impact force of a 23rd century railgun round?

Railguns in ACTA are AP DD and so qualify for whatever die modifier allows them to get the good criticals.

 

[l33tpenguin]

[

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour. fuel tank, whoomph!
ok i now expect our large military contingent to tell me this ain;t so!

That's the good trick, getting the bullet through the armour in the first place. It used to work, which is why anti-tank rifles were invented. It didn't work when armour became thicker, which is why anti-tank rifles became obsolete during WW2. Having said that, a lot of modern armour-piercing ammo is solid - maybe allow AP the same modifier as DD.

The projectile doesn't need to penetrate the armour to cause critical internal systems damage. The impact shockwave pases through the metal and causes a scab of metal to come off at high energy from the internal wall of the armour.

With enough kinetic force the shockwave can penetrate very thick armour, hence the invention of Chobham armour which generates a counter shockwave through a shaped charge effect.

Ok rifle bullets can't do it today, but what is the impact force of a 23rd century railgun round?

I think going into the how and why of weapons is a little more advanced than ACtA. Applying reality to this game is a bit silly. Ships can't even move backwards. Let's not mention Newtonian physics. It is a kin to applying Wall Street investment tactics to Monopoly.

That said, creating a 'nasty crit' weapon trait is simple enough. We have traits for + to hit and + to damage, why not a + to crit, rather than complicating things by changing the traits that already exist? I would strongly advise minimizing the use of this trait as crits are already game ending enough. No idea what it could be called, but it would be simple enough to implement. It also is something else to make weapons different.

 

[Da Boss]

1) Break the weapons list down a bit
So a broadside would say
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - 2AD - Twin-Linked

Rather than

Heavy Pulse Cannons - 8AD - Twin-Linked

For ACtA, I prefer to keep weapons the way they are.

Otherwise you have a weapons section on a ship like the Nova looking like this:

Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - F - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - P - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - S - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - A - 2AD - Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon - A - 2AD - Twin-Linked

A ship like the Primus, Omega or Warlock would look even worse.

I think a "proper" (war level) Nova should have the following guns

Heavy Plasma Battery 15 F 14 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 P 18 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 S 18 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 A 12 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked

 

[l33tpenguin]

I think a "proper" (war level) Nova should have the following guns

Heavy Plasma Battery 15 F 14 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 P 18 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 S 18 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked
Heavy Plasma Battery 15 A 12 AP, Double Damage, Twin-Linked

lol, Well, possibly. I was just using that as an example of how breaking up weapons in ACtA can become overwhelming, even on a Raid level ship. The weapons I listed is just the Raid Nova. ACtA groups weapons types to make them faster to play with. And I like this, for ACtA's play style.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

If you break up weapons like that GEG would be disgustingly effective.

 

[l33tpenguin]

To add, I also agree with crits against weapons should only affect the weapons on the side facing the attacker. None of this random arc stuff. The only exception to this... kind of... is the T arc, which could get hit from any side. This also speeds up game play as it removes a roll to select the arc.

I've also never liked breaking up arcs when doing crit effects. it doesn't seem natural to break 5 arcs up into 6 numbers for the sake of a die roll.

Use any weapons in the arc facing the attacker. Boresite arcs are considered in the front and aft arcs respectively.

On a side note, I think that engine crits should not be able to be scored from the front arc. Yes, I'm aware engine crits can also affect turns, which, technically, could be done from any angle. Limiting engine crits to the side and rear arcs or even the rear arc add a level of strategy as you have to get on someone's tail to damage their engines, requiring you to out maneuver your opponents.

 

[basaint]

AGAin....Kuddos HIff!


am I the only one laughing here??!!

 

[H]

isn't their already a plus to crit mechanic, it's called precise? Hi I'm Troy McLure, you may remember it from such weapons as Neutron lasers.

 

[Burger]

If you break up weapons like that GEG would be disgustingly effective.

And AA would be a pain in the arse, it's already annoying when you have to roll each fighter flight's ADs separately, let alone if you had to roll every single ship's attacks in batches of 2!!!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Also, a single bullet can blowup a tank as easily as a missile, once it;s passed the armour.

I did hear one report of an M1 in Iraq getting disabled (mobility kill, classed as a dead tank) by a single 23mm round. Anyone else hear that?

 

[AdrianH]

I agree that weapons batteries should not be broken down into lots of 2AD weapons. If you want something between "-1 AD all arcs" and "one weapon system totally knocked out", maybe have "-1D AD from a random weapon facing the attacker". Eligible weapons are those in the arc facing the attacker (F, A, P or S), turret, and boresight if the attacker is in the forward arc. (Or aft arc of relevant Earth ships.)

Limiting engine crits to aft (or side) arc starts to get into B5 Wars level. Not all ships have their engine at the back - where is it on a Vree Xill, for example?

As for knocking out a tank with a low calibre shell - it can happen, but is it frequent enough to be worth considering in ACTA? Especially since all you have to do to disable a tank is break its track, whereas you'd need to disable a ship's engines.