ACTA: attacking fighters

B

Burger

Cosmic Mongoose
The fighters base is now used instead of the centre point for determining range. But how about for determining arc?

ie: can the Vorchan shoot the fighter below:
image10ma3.gif


a) Yes, Vorchan can shoot it because part of the base is in F arc
b) No, Vorchan can't shoot because the fighter's centre point is not in F arc
c) No, Vorchan can't shoot because the closest point of the fighter's base is not in F arc

As an extension of this, what if it were a Nova?
1) The Nova could choose which arc to fire, F or P, similar to if a target ship is exactly on the line between arcs
2) The Nova can only use the P arc because the fighter's centre or closest point are in that arc
3) The Nova can fire both F and P weapons because part of the fighter's base is in both arcs
 
Our group plays (a) - You measure to the edge of the base, and you can measure within your fire arc. You can fulfill both of these requirements against the target fighters.

The Eligible Targets section on p8 says:
"If a target lies on the border between two fire arcs, then the attacking player may decide which of the two arcs the target will be considered to be within. He must choose one fire arc in this way - he may not attack the target with weapons from both fire arcs."

Technically this means that you can't fire boresight weapons and fore weapons at a target, as you would be firing two arcs at it. I don't think anyone would try to rules lawyer that though. I hope...
 
neko said:
Our group plays (a) - You measure to the edge of the base, and you can measure within your fire arc. You can fulfill both of these requirements against the target fighters.

The Eligible Targets section on p8 says:
"If a target lies on the border between two fire arcs, then the attacking player may decide which of the two arcs the target will be considered to be within. He must choose one fire arc in this way - he may not attack the target with weapons from both fire arcs."

Technically this means that you can't fire boresight weapons and fore weapons at a target, as you would be firing two arcs at it. I don't think anyone would try to rules lawyer that though. I hope...
Click to expand...

I'm a new player, not a rules lawyer. :wink:
So what you are saying is that for say an F arc the boresight weapon creates a linear blind zone?

Now here is where I'm going to sound like that rules lawyer because a boresight isn't really an arc. It's a linear weapon. A weapon in the forward arc should be able to fire throughout that entire arc, exclusive of other weapons I'd think. Just like having multiple duplicate weapons with the same arc doesn't preclude you from firing them all. I'm not sure that a separate topic is needed to answer this, since I'd hope that someone at Mongoose might be looking in here. But now you've got me curious for an official answer.

Burger, I'd agree with neko that you should be able to fire on the fighter stand from either of those two arcs, once you declare which it is for other firings.
 
It quite clearly specifies on page 3 of the rule book that Boresight, Boresight Aft, and Turret are separate fire arcs. As I say though, I don't think that anyone would try to enforce this, and personally I think that anyone who does is a rules lawyer of the worst kind. It's sometimes just fun though to pick up on these little FUBARs in the rules ;)
 
neko said:
It quite clearly specifies on page 3 of the rule book that Boresight, Boresight Aft, and Turret are separate fire arcs. As I say though, I don't think that anyone would try to enforce this, and personally I think that anyone who does is a rules lawyer of the worst kind. It's sometimes just fun though to pick up on these little FUBARs in the rules ;)
Click to expand...

I think I now understand your stand on this. It would indeed BE a rules lawyer that would argue that the F and B could not fire together (or say a turret!) because the rules state that they cannot. OK, I get it. There should be a clarification in the 2e FAQ, I'd think. You'd then have a piece of paper to gag them with, heh. :wink:
 
It doesn't actually say the arcs are mutually exclusive. If that were the cae, you would never be able to fire the turret, because it overlaps every other arc.
 
Refering back to my first post...
neko said:
The Eligible Targets section on p8 says:
"If a target lies on the border between two fire arcs, then the attacking player may decide which of the two arcs the target will be considered to be within. He must choose one fire arc in this way - he may not attack the target with weapons from both fire arcs."
Click to expand...
So it does say that you can't fire the turret if you're also planning to fire any weapons from other arcs at the same target.

Another situation that raises a similar issue, and is more likely to cause arguments is the planetary assault rules. By the letter of the rules, orbiting ships may only fire a single fire arc towards the planet. Whilst I expect that the intent is that you can fire your boresight, fore and turret arcs at the planet, it wouldn't surprise me if some people would read that and demand only one of the three weapon arcs be used.
 
The context should be considered and that's what Greg is saying.

I also understand what you are saying neko as well and that you would not play it in the restrictive way in which you report it.

In my own humorous way, let me contend that since a turret is a 360-deg. weapon it has an arc but it has no border. Ergo, it cannot conflict or deny any other weapon from firing. :wink:

As to the Boresight and Boresight Aft, they are specifically defined as a straight line ahead and a straight line behind. A line can be a border but it has no arc. Ergo, it cannot conflict or deny any other weapon from firing. :wink:

So neko, if you ever come across a "rules lawyer" that tries to argue the way that you fear might happen, tell him that there are two lawyers in any case and that your lawyer has won that case. :D
 
neko said:
*points Burger towards the first two replies*
Click to expand...
You contradicted yourself, and BuShips admits to being a new player (no offense but it takes a long time to get to grips with some of the ACTA rules!). This is Rulesmasters, a place for definitive answes, not debates and off-topic rambling.

Also please don't post in Rulesmasters unless you know 100% what the right answer is. "Our group plays" has no meaning here, unless your group happens to involve Mongoose employees or playtesters! It is well known that Matt is more likely to look into a thread with no replies, than one which has had replies (useless or otherwise) by other people. So by offering opinion and personal views, you reduce the likelihood of a definitive official answer being given.
 
Where's the contradiction?
Also, if you wanted official mongoose rulings only why didnt you say so? You yourself answer some of the posts in here, so you can hardly say that rulesmasters if for mongoose staff only to answer. Well, unless you want to b the one contradicting yourself at least...
 
neko said:
Where's the contradiction?
Click to expand...
You say you play (a) because you can fulfil both requirements. Then say you can't fire a B and F weapons at the same target. But these are the same, to fire a B and F weapons you can fulfil the requirements therefore can fire both.

neko said:
Also, if you wanted official mongoose rulings only why didnt you say so? You yourself answer some of the posts in here, so you can hardly say that rulesmasters if for mongoose staff only to answer. Well, unless you want to b the one contradicting yourself at least...
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily want Mongoose official rulings only. But I want an answer from someone who knows the correct one. Not personal opinions. If I wanted that then I'd have put it in the general forum, not Rulesmasters.

I only answer people's threads in here when I know 100% the correct answer, or when other unofficial answers have already been given. I never put "we play" or "I think".
 
Ah, that makes more sense... basically the fighter's centre point is always used for arc measurement, whereas the base is used for range. Thanks :)
 
Burger said:
Ah, that makes more sense... basically the fighter's centre point is always used for arc measurement, whereas the base is used for range. Thanks :)
Click to expand...

Well, this is certainly giving me some insight and help to play. Burger, sorry I added to the consternation. I had forgotten this was a rulesmasters topic and got wrapped up in neko's "puzzle". :oops:

So measurements are taken from (and to) a ship's counter's centerpoint or a ship's base stem. On fighters, it's from the counter edge (with the centerpoint coming into focus only on arc locations), correct?

I also checked out the stats for the Vorchan and Nova and compared them to your example (experienced players would already know this).

BTW, where did you get the digital Vorchan counter that you used for your question?
 
BuShips said:
So measurements are taken from (and to) a ship's counter's centerpoint or a ship's base stem. On fighters, it's from the counter edge (with the centerpoint coming into focus only on arc locations), correct?
Click to expand...
Yep, all correct :)

BuShips said:
BTW, where did you get the digital Vorchan counter that you used for your question?
Click to expand...
I have the PDF rule book, it has counters in the back so I did a screen grab. :lol:
 
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