A Discussion about reactions

Hopeless

Mongoose
This might come across as a little strange but I wanted to get some feedback on a couple of ideas I've been thinking about.

I've been looking at running Traveller 2300 but have been wondering if I'm better off sticking with core Traveller rules.

The background for a near future game I've been considering involves as part of the history that someone on Earth successfully built a working spaceship outside of the US or Russia.
Through means I've yet to fully explain they've managed to hide the fact that they've successfully not just get a ship into space but established three bases on Mars in the view of finding out if its possible to establish a colony there.

They have also sent probes to the other planets to perform far more detailed surveys than anything the current world governments are capable of even going so far as to reach Pluto.

Now I've been going over this and figure the only way this could be remotely possible is if this person was known to be working on a working maneuver drive and stumbled onto the means to create a working jump drive which was used to establish a series of orbital supply points to allow for a ship to travel to and back from Mars but due to the technology involved was effectively undetectable by the world's current technology base.

Making use of recruits from around the world and keeping them in the dark about what she was really doing she kept this a secret for about say twenty to thirty years before a small number of her experts realised what she had accomplished and spilled the beans in at least two cases they went live on television with proof to back up their claims.

The reaction was cataclysmic because the governments were unprepared for such an event they attempted to secure (read steal) her inventions and tried to forcibly secure her bases which was impossible because she kept the secret of her inventions in a way to make their best efforts at duplicating them near impossible.

Near impossible because the stutter drive was their best replication of her working jump drive, in an act of stupidity a conglomerate of corporations tried to force the issue and killed almost her entire family save for a single grandchild whom escaped after his grandmother sacrificed her life protecting him.
By that I mean they killed the only person who knew how the jump drive worked and it would either take centuries before someone could figure it out or a surviving descendant of the inventor was willing to figure out what noone else can.

My question is, is this over reaction what you figure would happen, could it be much worse should I consider global implications of someone successfully inventing this at least a century before T2300 is supposed to start?

Is there other concerns I should be considering?

Should I elaborate in greater detail?

For timeline, the inventor was born around 1980 and began her experiments roughly about 2009 but only got as far as building the first working spaceship about 2015 with the first working jump drive about 2025 with the first mission to Mars about 2028 (non-manned) to establish supply points so return trips were possible and the first Mars base was started about 2030 and manned about 2032 albeit security and safety measures meant noone realised they were on Mars until the first expeditions outside the then thought experimental Mars base tests in 2035 the first leak occurred about 2038 with the televised revelations in early 2039 where the inventor chose to reveal she had sent probes to explore the outer planets as far as Pluto and was planning to establish a mining colony in the asteroid belt which was why she chose to come clean.
She was killed in 2070 after her family was targetted following her repeated refusal to release all of her inventions to the Government nor the Corporations since she was trying to avoid spreading humanities political and religious problems as they finally left their homeworld.

Yes it needs a lot more work and I've been looking at Orbital, but feel this might be a little beyond that stage.
 
How do you intend to hide any activities on and around Mars
from the international community of astronomers and plane-
tologists and their scientific instruments ?

Mars is being observed constantly by telescopes on Earth and
space probes in its orbit, and there are also any communica-
tion signals which would be picked up by the many radio tele-
scopes currently in operation all over the world.
 
rust said:
How do you intend to hide any activities on and around Mars from the international community of astronomers and planetologists and their scientific instruments ?

Mars is being observed constantly by telescopes on Earth and space probes in its orbit, and there are also any communication signals which would be picked up by the many radio telescopes currently in operation all over the world.

I figure her early experiments involved making use of Demos and Phobos as either a tether for her supply points and eventually established a base there making use of their orbit to stay out of view before even going far enough to establish a base on Mars which would be underground but made use of more accurate surveys since those back on Earth are dependant on artefacts such as Curisoity to supply information and she knew enough to keep out of their way even going so far as to hide the initial building process which would have slowed her plans so she could make sure it was safe to build her three bases.

One would be intended as a landing bay set in a suitable mountainous area with multiple means of transportation so the three bases would be linked but out of sight of those in space unless they made an indepth examination of Demos and Phobos and realised there are signs of construction there.

The second would be to establish a hydroponics bay including research facilities to further her plans and a means of transportation that meant she had three separate ways of getting her unwary personel up to the moon base and then back to earth without raising suspicions.

That means is very likely going to have to be a working teleporation device which by Traveller terms would be ridiculous but not if she was to keep her expedition a secret from the eyes of the world.

By this I mean she built the working jump drive and the world assumed it blew up upon leaving Earth for Mars but noone realised it jumped to Mars and crashed on Deimos with the second making use of the wreckage and a tether system to allow it to latch onto the moon and begin assembling the first part of the equipment that would establish the first base and later the pad required to allow successful teleporation from Earth to Deimos with Phobos used as a secondary base since they would have to use some kind of drones to land on Mars and drill down to commence building the first of the Mars bases which would have to be covered when in view until enough was completed to assemble a teleport pad that users would assume was a lift lowering the occupants to an underground facility.

I still think I ought to lengthen the time required to get to that stage.
When her secret was revealed she prevented anyone gaining access to the teleport technology by allowing her jump drive invention to be revealed, by the time anyone realised the truth about this any evidence of the teleportation tech was dismantled and safely disposed of although she kept a couple of working prototypes hidden on Earth where noone could find them since she wasn't just building underground bases on Mars she actually had been building underground bases on Earth which had been discounted as a cover story for the Mars bases.

Going too far again!
 
By teleportation device I mean she built a means of teleporting initially equipment and later people to other locations by means of pad think Star Trek where they step or are loaded onto the pad and are moved across space to another pad located elsewhere.

I figure rather than disaasembling the load atom by atom it actually encompassed the area in a field reminisient of the more powerful jump drive and opened a portal to the destination shoving the delivery through with a feeling reminiscient of going down in a lift.

I suppose Stargate would be a better example except the occupants or cargo don't actually move the pad literally swaps places with the destination pad however this would require a landing pad wherever needed to be reached and still leaves the problem of getting the equipment there, assembled and operational all without anyone realising whats was going on.

And keeping it a secret even after the project was revealed and someone realised there was no way she could have used spaceships to accomplish the task alone...

Yes going way too far!
 
experts realised what she had accomplished and spilled the beans in at least two cases they went live on television with proof to back up their claims.

My question is, is this over reaction what you figure would happen, could it be much worse should I consider global implications of someone successfully inventing this at least a century before T2300 is supposed to start?

Is there other concerns I should be considering?

Should I elaborate in greater detail?
You are vague as to what was "spilled". If they have legitimate "proof" then the technology could be out for all to use, because anything less than replicable tech or undeniable proof would be scoffed at and debated like idealistic posts in a forum since your premiss is that everything is hidden and secret. Perhaps some government might want to look into it further. Different governments can react in different ways.

What do you think would have happened if the initial makers of personal computers kept it for their own internal use within their companies and never sold their creations but instead kept it secret?

Perhaps proof that no one will care about what she is doing is that she herself doesn't think what has been accomplished is important enough to let people know about and profit from it. Something that you need to predetermine is why is she doing this?

The issue that also still needs to be resolved is how any initial ships or probes could leave earth undetected. I'm sure many governments would be curious as to it's source and what it is doing so it would be closely monitored after detection. We also currently have artificial satellites around Mars though I'm not sure of their capability to change orbit if a craft were to try and land outside of their observational ability. I'm sure if unknown craft were seen going to Mars or it's moons and then went out of sensor detection that additional missions would be funded and craft would be sent to find answers.
 
CosmicGamer said:
You are vague as to what was "spilled". If they have legitimate "proof" then the technology could be out for all to use, because anything less than replicable tech or undeniable proof would be scoffed at and debated like idealistic posts in a forum since your premiss is that everything is hidden and secret. Perhaps some government might want to look into it further. Different governments can react in different ways.
What do you think would have happened if the initial makers of personal computers kept it for their own internal use within their companies and never sold their creations but instead kept it secret?
Perhaps proof that no one will care about what she is doing is that she herself doesn't think what has been accomplished is important enough to let people know about and profit from it.
The issue that also still needs to be resolved is how any initial ships or probes could leave earth undetected. I'm sure many governments would be curious as to it's source and what it is doing so it would be closely monitored after detection. We also currently have artificial satellites around Mars though I'm not sure of their capability to change orbit if a craft were to try and land outside of their observational ability. I'm sure if unknown craft were seen going to Mars and then went out of sensor detection that additional missions would be funded and craft would be sent to find answers.

Perhaps I should revise that by saying her first attempt to send a probe out into space was thought to have blown up after passing behind the moon on its way to intersect Mars instead of successfully jumping to Mars and colliding with Deimos...

That would limit who would actually know she succeeded with the first jump drive to those present maybe a handful of people or so to know it did actually jump to Mars orbit and that it crashed rather than blew up...
The second attempt would involve having the craft tether itself to Deimos and make use of the remains of the earlier probe to establish a link back to Earth.

Now another question should be is how long before the second launch would be ready given the normal launch window protocols and to avoid suspicion since these aren't limited to the same problems of timing how long should the probe be in space before reaching Mars within a reasonably normal time frame?

With the second probe tethered to Deimos it can eventually start communicating back to Earth, which should be detectable to anyone with the means to do so although it would take time before anyone realises who its transmitting to and discovering the time between the launch of the second probe and its commencing operation in Mars orbit should make them wonder how its getting there so fast.

No, no matter which way I think this through it goes back to the fact this would be discovered long before a Mars base is even contemplated let alone such things as an operational teleportation system comes into play!

Which is why I needed to discuss this to poke holes in whats clearly a sieve instead of a bucket trying to hold water!
 
Hopeless said:
No, no matter which way I think this through it goes back to the fact this would be discovered long before a Mars base is even contemplated let alone such things as an operational teleportation system comes into play!
I think this would be the case. For example, immediately after
the launch of the first craft the major powers would focus their
survey satellites on the launch site and ask their various intel-
ligence services to find out what is going on there, just in case
someone is secretly playing around with missiles intended for
military payloads - and keeping in mind the almost universal
fear of weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver
them, those intelligence services would use all of the means at
their disposal to get at the truth.
 
What exactly are you trying to achieve as your setting and a precursor to your game start up? It seams like you've perhaps created multiple new problems and should go back to the beginning and provide the basics of your premise and then we can step through it up to the point in time when the game starts.

One government, corporation, or group has jump technology first?
One government, corporation, or group has transporter technology first?
A "secret" base on mars by one government, corporation, or group?

Secret might simply mean people don't know why the base is being built or what capabilities it has. Agriculture, research, mining, weapons....
 
Can't help thinking having a moon base being established would help further my idea.

Nearest body to Earth, most likeliest to even contemplate establishing a base most probably underground with maybe shielding to better protect whoever works there, maybe even as far as an actual colony although I keep getting Space 1999 flashbacks when I do that except no unexplained explosion sending it into the depths of space...

Should make it easier for building a spaceship for the eventual trip to Mars, going back the original plan was that a maneuver drive was being developed and research done resulted in the discovery of a jump drive capability which was pursued separately from the maneuver drive continued research.

So a group of research scientists brought together to develop a drive to replace rocket technology to improve the chances of making the trip to Mars.
A prototype is developed but discarded as unsuitable perhaps more for political or economic reasons rather than it actually not workable and the prototype research is continued separately.
This results in the discovery of applications that later develop into a working jump drive but as far as this era is concerned is the earlier stage that would later be recognised as the stutter drive.

Being separate from the main research group the inventor develops her design into two probes the first is a test bed for the initial design and fails not so much because of faulty design but by a deliberate sabotage that unknowingly helps hide the jump drive from discovery.
Those present record the disappearance and its officially announced as having blown up but she perhaps alone knows it successfully jumped into Mars orbit before the sabotage causes it to crash into Deimos causing some official concern as she's the only one who knows what caused the recorded collision with Deimos.
 
Hopeless said:
Being separate from the main research group the inventor develops her design into two probes ...
She would need a lot of funds, a lot of industrial capacity and
a lot of personnel, and whoever provides that would most pro-
bably take a very close look at the way these valuable resour-
ces are used - few organizations other than those involved in
military research are able and willing to hand out a couple of
billions of currency to sponsor an inventor's pet project with-
out much control over what exactly is going on.
 
CosmicGamer said:
What exactly are you trying to achieve as your setting and a precursor to your game start up? It seams like you've perhaps created multiple new problems and should go back to the beginning and provide the basics of your premise and then we can step through it up to the point in time when the game starts.

One government, corporation, or group has jump technology first?
One government, corporation, or group has transporter technology first?
A "secret" base on mars by one government, corporation, or group?

Secret might simply mean people don't know why the base is being built or what capabilities it has. Agriculture, research, mining, weapons....

I'm thinking she's part of a research group associated with the European Space Agency, their development of the maneuver drive is thought too costly and some of the team are merged with NASA to continue their research with joint funding perhaps have the team split in three working with the Russians and the Chinese whilst an independent group continues research focused on the shelved prototype.
ESA agrees to the launch of her first probe which is deliberately sabotaged because she refuses to disclose the new design which is clearly different from the shelved prototype and the other prototypes planned by the other three competing interests who are far behind her in the planning stage.
What noone knew before the launch was that the probe includes a working jump drive which worked perfectly delivering the probe into Mars orbit and released its payload before crashing.
The satellite uneffected by the probe's destruction tethered itself to Deimos shortly and began transmitting about a full orbital day later which from the viewpoint of those back on Earth was a full eight days after its launch.

(According to Rust's reply below I modified this to see if it works better, I really ought to stop jumping in and correcting everything!)

By the time the world noticed the transmission, she had received confirmation of the success of her experiment and thats where I'd like another opinion...

Sounds a mite better than what i originally intended and would work better with Orbital too.

I figure at this stage she hasn't revealed she's invented the first jump drive, most of the world at this point believes her probe design blew up after passing behind the moon and only those connected with her and at ESA will be in a position to realise what she's accomplished but the question is whether I should start the game at this stage by having them decide what happens next or whether i should go a little further with the timeline before the start of play.

Currently I see four players on the board, NASA and Russia having the most practical experience of space travel, followed by ESA who may or may not know exactly what they have and the Chinese who have the most funding and even more reason to want to get involved.

So do I try an opening game where the players run characters working for one of these groups with the Chinese trying to abduct the scientist and her research or just go for the research since she might be too heavily protected (or might not be) or have this go into whichever side they want to play try approaching her directly to recruit her?

The question I have is how long would it be after stations on Earth receive the transmissions from her tethered satellite in Mars orbit before they trace it back and realise someone's actually succeeded with something that would change everything as far as the space race is concerned?

Do I still go back and set it after she's been murdered or rethink this entirely due to the above basis?

If you were told you were playing in a Traveller game set after the discovery someone had invented a working drive that allowed for a satellite to be tethered to one of Mars' moons in about 8 days how would you react?

More importantly if given the choice of playing characters part of either NASA, ESA or the Russian or Chinese equivalents would you want it to be about securing this asset or set shortly after with the first attempt to use this new invention to get a manned mission to Mars?
 
rust said:
Hopeless said:
Being separate from the main research group the inventor develops her design into two probes ...
She would need a lot of funds, a lot of industrial capacity and a lot of personnel, and whoever provides that would most probably take a very close look at the way these valuable resources are used - few organizations other than those involved in military research are able and willing to hand out a couple of billions of currency to sponsor an inventor's pet project without much control over what exactly is going on.

I agree which is why I figure it would have to be the one probe which was secretly intended to test the jump drive prototype and deliver a payload into Mars orbit which it succeeded but was sabotaged in an attempt to shelve the project.

Eight days later they discover something transmitting from Mars and eventually discover its the satellite her probe was intended to deliver, hmm what would happen between those eight days before that transmission is detected?

Still the cost would be prohibitive so question is who would have financed it and what did they expect back from the experiment?

I still think it was officially only supposed to be testing the new maneuver drive so that design might be out in the open but other than the satellite it was intended to delivery the real question should be could she have hidden the fact she had included a prototype jump drive in the design and noone noticed because she kept it out of any official design plans as a fail safe security measure?

Maybe whoever financed her took the designs for their own and is having their own team continue the research leaving her out in the cold... makes me wonder if I should rethink this as a more earth bound adventure idea...

Still think Traveller core rules work better, but have it more closer to now than the far future or two centuries from now maybe...
 
So early questions are:
1) Who is financing and backing the research.
Few people will do so while being "kept in the dark" and there is a lot of accountability for resources.
2) How would they even know what they have without at some point "Oh my goodness! What just happened?" and teams of people analyzing things?
3) How could a single person pre plan a fake crash and then take over the still operating ship without use of the "space center". See #1. All the equipment and resources needed to interact with the ship and continue research would have been re-purposed or shut down.

Overall, I think it's a bit easier if instead of an individual scientist being behind this there is a corporation. Employees sign confidentiality agreements. They are involved in other projects that can help conceal things. Accountants fake the books if necessary to hide things from the board of directors and the government.

Once they have an inkling as to what they have, it's easier for a corporation to combine tests with a legitimate probe to mars. Maybe multiple missions to multiple planets. Jupiter might hide the earlier unpredictable results better. Perhaps the corporation owns and operates some of the satellites around the planets and can falsify or hide certain readings from getting out.

4) Why do they feel the need to keep it a secret? Big difference between people knowing what you can do and giving away how you do it. It's expensive, how do they plan on profiting from it?

Some posts since I started composing this. Sorry, I'm busy making dinner and don't have time to check them and reedit my post.
 
Hopeless said:
So do I try an opening game where the players run characters working for one of these groups with the Chinese trying to abduct the scientist and her research ...
This would not at all be the current Chinese style. In my view a far
more plausible Chinese reaction would be like "We would be willing
to fund the lion's share of an international mission to Mars if all the
participating nations let us in on their technologies, especially that
new drive." - and the players could be members of that first mission,
a mission with different factions on board, which could work well with
Orbital's concept.
 
CosmicGamer said:
So early questions are:
1) Who is financing and backing the research.
Few people will do so while being "kept in the dark" and there is a lot of accountability for resources.

Lets go for the wild idea that Richard Branson and a group of fellow minded enthusiasts agreed to fund certain projects and this was the first available they agreed to :D !

2) How would they even know what they have without at some point "Oh my goodness! What just happened?" and teams of people analyzing things?

I get this vision that her rivals promptly claimed it had blown up after they lost track of the probe after it passed behind the moon (which was so she could hide the intended test of the her jump drive prototype) but i have this really funny vision where she told them to expect a transmission as proof she had succeeded after all what would be the reaction if a satellite started broadcasting from Mars orbit and part of the transmision was a tv advert about either Virgin Airlines or another Branson's business interests?

You know done the right way that would be hilarious in a tv show...

3) How could a single person pre plan a fake crash and then take over the still operating ship without use of the "space center". See #1. All the equipment and resources needed to interact with the ship and continue research would have been re-purposed or shut down.

Not a fake crash, I figure the sabotage would mirror what had happened to another couple of launches especially one involving Mars from what i recall, it would make more sense than to have it blow up in orbit and would work better if it was intended to crashland on the moon but the fact they didn't know about the jump drive test meant it still reached Mars but collided with Deimos instead.
I figure it was designed to release the satellite once it reached Mars orbit without external influence, the satellite was designed to tether itself to either Deimos or Phobos which only worked because the probe crashed into Deimos and luck more than design is what prevented it sharing the fate of the probe.

Overall, I think it's a bit easier if instead of an individual scientist being behind this there is a corporation. Employees sign confidentiality agreements. They are involved in other projects that can help conceal things. Accountants fake the books if necessary to hide things from the board of directors and the government.
Once they have an inkling as to what they have, it's easier for a corporation to combine tests with a legitimate probe to mars. Maybe multiple missions to multiple planets. Jupiter might hide the earlier unpredictable results better. Perhaps the corporation owns and operates some of the satellites around the planets and can falsify or hide certain readings from getting out.

They are good points but I figure she had been part of the original research team involved on the maneuver drive and was discarded because she lacked the qualifications and official experience of the other members. However she knew enough and had access to the shelved prototype that she easily figured out how to build a working prototype small enough for her probe but that the lion share of the grant was used to develop her jump drive prototype.
Can't help wondering what the reaction would be if the Corporation initially in control of the world's only jump drive design is owned by Richard Branson, exactly what kind of name would go with Virgin for this business opportunity?

4) Why do they feel the need to keep it a secret? Big difference between people knowing what you can do and giving away how you do it. It's expensive, how do they plan on profiting from it?
Some posts since I started composing this. Sorry, I'm busy making dinner and don't have time to check them and reedit my post.

Originally this was about explaining why there had been a jump drive invented but all they have available is the stutter drive, now I'm wondering whether its better explaining that the stutter drive was invented first because it simply wasn't possible to create a working jump drive in this time.
The secret was due to the inventor having the funds and means to keep it a secret to avoid any one side gaining sole access and that part of her back story was that she had lost her own family in a war that left her with a serious grudge with the governments most likely to fund her research which clearly wouldn't work at this point.

Still this is a good start, didn't expect this many replies myself just hope I haven't made a hash of my responses!

Oh and by the way thanks its opened up ideas I never even considered!
 
rust said:
Hopeless said:
So do I try an opening game where the players run characters working for one of these groups with the Chinese trying to abduct the scientist and her research ...
This would not at all be the current Chinese style. In my view a far more plausible Chinese reaction would be like "We would be willing to fund the lion's share of an international mission to Mars if all the participating nations let us in on their technologies, especially that new drive." - and the players could be members of that first mission, a mission with different factions on board, which could work well with Orbital's concept.

Apologies this subsequently makes this thread even more important and also rereading Orbital.

Need to find out how ESA gets its funding as well as learn the name for the Russian and Chinese respective space agencies.

I wonder if say all parties were inclined to not expect much from her probe launch, but the first response was that it obviously was successful in launching would the fact it disappears from telemetry once it passed behind the moon.
With nothing detected until the collision with Deimos a week later which would remain unexplained until the satellite the probe was intended to deliver starts transmitting a day later (or so depending on the rotation of Deimos and Mars in relation to Earth) sorry meant to say how would her invention be viewed until they got confirmation it was actually successful!

Would current day technology be able to detect if a probe either blew up or crashed on the dark side of the moon?

More importantly what would be likely detected when they pick up a jump signature for the very first time?

Would it be likely she could hide the fact she had included another prototype in the probe, I agree it would have to be included in the design specifications but maybe its existance was downplayed and its specifics kept secret for security purposes since the original maneuver drive research program was officially known but her version was thought the only secret involved.
 
Hopeless said:
... how would her invention be viewed until they got confirmation it was actually successful!
I think it would mostly be ignored until then, as just another
one of the many experimental projects going on somewhere
around the world, probably only a few specialists would be
interested.
Would current day technology be able to detect if a probe either blew up or crashed on the dark side of the moon?
In theory, yes, but only if someone would allocate the resour-
ces to take a look.
Oh, and please, the moon has a far side, but it is not at all
dark. :wink:
More importantly what would be likely detected when they pick up a jump signature for the very first time?
It depends on whether someone already has invented the in-
struments required to detect a jump signature, which is un-
likely because until the first signal there would be nothing to
detect.
Would it be likely she could hide the fact she had included another prototype in the probe...
Well, not really, because she will hardly build and outfit the
probe alone, and I suspect that the prototype would not be
small enough to just hide it among some other stuff. In my
view the entire engineering team working on the probe would
have to be involved.
 
Don't know if it will help any, but I like Oribital's take on things more than 2300AD's for near future RPGing using Traveller.
 
Hopeless said:
Need to find out how ESA gets its funding as well as learn the name for the Russian and Chinese respective space agencies.
China National Space Administration (CNSA).
Here in America the press seams not to cover foreign achievements but China has the Shenlong, a re-entering aerodynamic spacecraft, and the Tiangong-1 is their first space lab which from what I gather is mostly for testing the Shenlongs docking ability and a precursor to the Tiangong-2 space lab in 2014 and perhaps one more lab in the next 3 years before completing a 60-ton permanent Chinese space station planed to be completed in 2020. Already 20 years in development, around 2015 China plans to launch the Hard X-ray Modulation Telescope (HXMT), designed to observe black holes, neutron stars and other phenomena based on their X-ray and gamma ray emissions. A crewed expedition to the Moon is planned between 2026 and 2030 and then Mars. Good links are:
http://www.spacedaily.com/dragonspace.html
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn or http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n615709/cindex.html


Роскосмос Roskosmos, or Roskosmos, or PKA is the Russian Federal Space Agency. http://www.federalspace.ru/ There is a link for English but it doesn't seam to work in my browser.

The ESA has a budget of over $4 billion Euros contributed by the 20 member nations and the European Union with Canada and prospective new members contributing a small amount too.
 
CosmicGamer said:
The ESA has a budget of over $4 billion Euros contributed by the 20 member nations and the European Union with Canada and prospective new members contributing a small amount too.
In the case of ESA it may be interesting to know that its budget
covers the science projects only, the European launchers are de-
veloped, marketed and operated by the commercial enterprise
Arianespace.
 
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