I sort of agree with katadder (I agree that the Mothership is too good) but feel that a simple dropping of the fighters to one flight would balance it out. Another alternative would be to drop the Stealth to 3+. Small things but enough to tip it back into a fairly balanced ship.
8 War Point Annihilation - Narn vs Psi Corp
- Thread starter Kakkarotto_san
- Start date
I tend to disagree with katadder and triggy. The ship is very slow, which means it's opponents will pick the range. Yes the mothership will likely get one shot before the hyperion, but only one, hardly raped. It's lumbering and has a blind arc... a bad combo. Don't discount hull 4, this is a ship where the secondaries of the enemy fleet will matter.
It does have more af, which is good, but going from inter 2 to inter 4 is one more blocked hit a turn on average.
It does have great superiority fighters, but as anti ship they are only average. It does have four but no carrier trait so they deploy slowly, minimum turn 3 to have them out, longer if it jumps in. It has stealth, but is speed four so it easy to run down.
the hyperion also has that back beam which is very useful, better guns at short range and a flight of its own that can attack outside of af range.
Mothership suffers against multiple ships as its stealth degrades, and the chance to cold stop an advance with a lucky crit gets less likely. Hyperion doesn't suffer any more than any other ship.
Just saying that the ship is hardly beyond the pale. Reduce its stealth to 3+ and you might as well just remove it, as most games it will be reduced to 1+ (scout reduction plus another ship hitting it, good for one ship at best). If stealth couldn't be negated... but it can...
Reducing the fighters isn't a great solution either in my opinion, as they are right now why you buy the ship. Otherwise you are always better off with a hunter over a pair of motherships... no boresight, better hull, better arc, and at that point better fighters (though you do get that bad stealth).
Also would help if the fighter carrier and the escort didn't suck... but eh...
Psychic crew is an okay trait, but how many SA's are still useful after movement... CBT, CAF, IDF... that's about it if you staying in close. All Stop, Come About, All Power... already done... just saying it's nice, but with a few exceptions not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Ripple
It does have more af, which is good, but going from inter 2 to inter 4 is one more blocked hit a turn on average.
It does have great superiority fighters, but as anti ship they are only average. It does have four but no carrier trait so they deploy slowly, minimum turn 3 to have them out, longer if it jumps in. It has stealth, but is speed four so it easy to run down.
the hyperion also has that back beam which is very useful, better guns at short range and a flight of its own that can attack outside of af range.
Mothership suffers against multiple ships as its stealth degrades, and the chance to cold stop an advance with a lucky crit gets less likely. Hyperion doesn't suffer any more than any other ship.
Just saying that the ship is hardly beyond the pale. Reduce its stealth to 3+ and you might as well just remove it, as most games it will be reduced to 1+ (scout reduction plus another ship hitting it, good for one ship at best). If stealth couldn't be negated... but it can...
Reducing the fighters isn't a great solution either in my opinion, as they are right now why you buy the ship. Otherwise you are always better off with a hunter over a pair of motherships... no boresight, better hull, better arc, and at that point better fighters (though you do get that bad stealth).
Also would help if the fighter carrier and the escort didn't suck... but eh...
Psychic crew is an okay trait, but how many SA's are still useful after movement... CBT, CAF, IDF... that's about it if you staying in close. All Stop, Come About, All Power... already done... just saying it's nice, but with a few exceptions not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Ripple
yes its slow, but this means it can move 2" and line up its 30" beam on a target, and not many ships have weapons of greater range than 30".
the hyperion may get to fire on turn 2 but thats a 50/50.
the hyperion only outguns the mothership to the rear, and slightly to the front with AP guns but its all the same AD.
the fighters will kill the hyperions single fighter then harass said hyperion getting a 4+ save against whatever the small AF defense puts out which now puts the mothership on better AD than a hyperion in any arc.
mothership has more damage.
mothership has better CQ so can come about easier.
it and its fighters are just so much better than the hyperion its just silly.
the hyperion may get to fire on turn 2 but thats a 50/50.
the hyperion only outguns the mothership to the rear, and slightly to the front with AP guns but its all the same AD.
the fighters will kill the hyperions single fighter then harass said hyperion getting a 4+ save against whatever the small AF defense puts out which now puts the mothership on better AD than a hyperion in any arc.
mothership has more damage.
mothership has better CQ so can come about easier.
it and its fighters are just so much better than the hyperion its just silly.
Katadder - I thought you felt it (in another rather long thread)was not wise to compare one ship design against another - ie Shadow fighter vs another fighter, Shaodw Scout vs Delphi but only if the fleet is unbalanced? Otherwise all ships in all fleets would be the same?
Have played against the mother ship on a few occasions - its ok good raid ship - but def killable - Centauri had no real problems with it or its fighters - true we do have great fighters though
We do love Hull 4 ships - bit like the Dilgar, Vree and others
Is it really that good - one of the best Raid level ships? cos they are plenty of good ones - Whitestar's, Halik, Balvarian, Brakair carrier, etc.
Is the worry it in numbers? If so does that not apply to any all good raid level ships? Only way to stop that is to have limits on rare ships like the Unique trait?
Have played against the mother ship on a few occasions - its ok good raid ship - but def killable - Centauri had no real problems with it or its fighters - true we do have great fighters though
We do love Hull 4 ships - bit like the Dilgar, Vree and others Is it really that good - one of the best Raid level ships? cos they are plenty of good ones - Whitestar's, Halik, Balvarian, Brakair carrier, etc.
Is the worry it in numbers? If so does that not apply to any all good raid level ships? Only way to stop that is to have limits on rare ships like the Unique trait?
well compared to a hyperion which was effectively the same tech level (both earth tech etc) then yes it really is that good.
yes the centauri, vree and dilgar will love it cos of hull 4, but the minbari will find it worse than a hyperion because its hull 4 with higher damage.
also it carries 4 elite fighters on top of all that extra goodness.
things i would like to see done to it, carry only 2 fighters (or 4 if they lose the stupid psychic dodge) and have its beam reduced to 20". speed 4 is not a problem when you have a 30" gun.
yes the centauri, vree and dilgar will love it cos of hull 4, but the minbari will find it worse than a hyperion because its hull 4 with higher damage.
also it carries 4 elite fighters on top of all that extra goodness.
things i would like to see done to it, carry only 2 fighters (or 4 if they lose the stupid psychic dodge) and have its beam reduced to 20". speed 4 is not a problem when you have a 30" gun.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The mothership works pretty well as a long range beam ship. The problem is it is too fragile to get close to the enemy, and much of it's good stuff is short ranged - psychic crew and pulse cannons.
It does exceed the Hyperion in some areas, but better? Not really. The Hyperion is a warship, the Mothership relies on it's so-so stealth for protection. The Hyperion is quicker and far more manueverable - vital traits for a ship with a boresight weapon.
In a one-on-one fight the mothership might well come out better off. But ACTA isn't a one ship game. And the Hyperion has much more varied fleet around it.
It does exceed the Hyperion in some areas, but better? Not really. The Hyperion is a warship, the Mothership relies on it's so-so stealth for protection. The Hyperion is quicker and far more manueverable - vital traits for a ship with a boresight weapon.
In a one-on-one fight the mothership might well come out better off. But ACTA isn't a one ship game. And the Hyperion has much more varied fleet around it.
ancients but diff tech.
yep greg you right, so 4 motherships and 4 shadow cloaks for a tourney 8 ship fleet.
gives 16 AD of beams, 16 elite fighters with a 4+ save against anything thats effective against them and 4 stealthy scouts.
balanced EA fleet, lets use triggys maybe from last tourney. omega, hyperion, avenger, olympus (?) and 2 hermes.
this fleet has 8AD of beams, 15 fighters on same dogfight and not the same save.
speed doesnt matter when you have 30" beams so the motherships can all line up on something nice an early whilst the hyperion isnt even in range. fighters i would say due to 50% of all corps fighters surviving they will win the dogfight battle.
the EA force is outgunned, out fightered, out init sinked and out teched. now you could go for a similar size EA force - 4 hyperions, 4 hermes but then its init +3 v init +1. the EA has 8 standard fighters against twice that number of elites and whilst has equal beams 1st turn wont actually get to use them until at least the 2nd turn, and then probably only have 3 hyperions, 1 of which will not even be able to see the motherships.
for ships from the same race its quite bizarre how much better the mothership is than a hyperion.
the hyperion has to move at least 4" before its 1st turn. the mothership has to move 2. ok the hyperion has a 2nd turn but in knife fights this will put you past the enemy anyway so in a knifefight the mothership is more manouvrable. the mothership outguns the hyperion in the flanks due to having TL on the same no of AD. it also has 4 times the fighters effectively doubling its AD.
the only place the hyperion really excells is the rear guns, 2AD plus 2AD beam. does that with speed make up for less fighters, less range, less damage, no stealth, less interceptors, less anti-fighter, lower CQ, no teep crew? I dont think so.
both the mothership and black omega are broken (black omega either needs standard dogfight or more likely to lose the 4+ save, after all B5 fighters raped them easily so must be dogfight +6 or something).
1e people used to call the sullust broken for having a 4AD fore arc beam. only having to move 2" before turning (which makes boresight extremely easy), have more range than a sullust and having stealth (effectively 5+ at that range) makes the mothership just as bad, probably worse as it carries so many elite fighters plsu has more defenses.
yep greg you right, so 4 motherships and 4 shadow cloaks for a tourney 8 ship fleet.
gives 16 AD of beams, 16 elite fighters with a 4+ save against anything thats effective against them and 4 stealthy scouts.
balanced EA fleet, lets use triggys maybe from last tourney. omega, hyperion, avenger, olympus (?) and 2 hermes.
this fleet has 8AD of beams, 15 fighters on same dogfight and not the same save.
speed doesnt matter when you have 30" beams so the motherships can all line up on something nice an early whilst the hyperion isnt even in range. fighters i would say due to 50% of all corps fighters surviving they will win the dogfight battle.
the EA force is outgunned, out fightered, out init sinked and out teched. now you could go for a similar size EA force - 4 hyperions, 4 hermes but then its init +3 v init +1. the EA has 8 standard fighters against twice that number of elites and whilst has equal beams 1st turn wont actually get to use them until at least the 2nd turn, and then probably only have 3 hyperions, 1 of which will not even be able to see the motherships.
for ships from the same race its quite bizarre how much better the mothership is than a hyperion.
the hyperion has to move at least 4" before its 1st turn. the mothership has to move 2. ok the hyperion has a 2nd turn but in knife fights this will put you past the enemy anyway so in a knifefight the mothership is more manouvrable. the mothership outguns the hyperion in the flanks due to having TL on the same no of AD. it also has 4 times the fighters effectively doubling its AD.
the only place the hyperion really excells is the rear guns, 2AD plus 2AD beam. does that with speed make up for less fighters, less range, less damage, no stealth, less interceptors, less anti-fighter, lower CQ, no teep crew? I dont think so.
both the mothership and black omega are broken (black omega either needs standard dogfight or more likely to lose the 4+ save, after all B5 fighters raped them easily so must be dogfight +6 or something).
1e people used to call the sullust broken for having a 4AD fore arc beam. only having to move 2" before turning (which makes boresight extremely easy), have more range than a sullust and having stealth (effectively 5+ at that range) makes the mothership just as bad, probably worse as it carries so many elite fighters plsu has more defenses.
I don't remember the Sulust being called broken. Prefect, yes. 3AD of DD/SAP Beam on a hull 6 ship, was just too much. But 4AD Beam on a hull 5 is not so bad. Now beam has changed and hull 4 is nowhere near as much of a disadvantage as it used to be, so I'd agree the mothership is too powerful and survivable. It should lose AD, or lose damage points.katadder said:
I only think it's a very good option rather than being broken actually. The tweaks I've suggested would just emphasise a weakness (or reduce a strength as the Black Omega flights are awesome). An entire fleet of them wouldn't work as well as having a couple support the fleet (much like the old Sulust acutally), they'd still be a reasonable fleet but not like the Prefects...
I still think you are totally undervalueing the issues the ship will have with races that are not beam dependent and fast.
These will die horribly to Dilgar, Centauri, Brakiri, Drazi, Vree, Shadows, some EA... No rear arc, one lumbering turn means avoiding the bore from 20 inches in is easy for most ships and avoiding ANY return fire isn't that hard by the third turn. Yes it has great fighters, but need the extra turn to launch them all... Psychic crew only matter if your trying non-movement special orders... and stealth of 4+ isn't that great on a ship that CANNOT control the range.
Play with terrain on the board to stop the 30 shot, and they die like dogs.
The fighters are great... but not better in a lot of ways than Fleet Carrier support T-bolts. They can't avoid af/aaf only hope to survive it. Yes they get a 4+ to recover a loss, but once gone their gone like anyone else... ie you have to kill them twice, but a T-bolt sitting at four needs to be killed more than that given it's dodge and then recover (no af/aaf need apply). And you get a lot more T-bolts for your buck.
Ripple
These will die horribly to Dilgar, Centauri, Brakiri, Drazi, Vree, Shadows, some EA... No rear arc, one lumbering turn means avoiding the bore from 20 inches in is easy for most ships and avoiding ANY return fire isn't that hard by the third turn. Yes it has great fighters, but need the extra turn to launch them all... Psychic crew only matter if your trying non-movement special orders... and stealth of 4+ isn't that great on a ship that CANNOT control the range.
Play with terrain on the board to stop the 30 shot, and they die like dogs.
The fighters are great... but not better in a lot of ways than Fleet Carrier support T-bolts. They can't avoid af/aaf only hope to survive it. Yes they get a 4+ to recover a loss, but once gone their gone like anyone else... ie you have to kill them twice, but a T-bolt sitting at four needs to be killed more than that given it's dodge and then recover (no af/aaf need apply). And you get a lot more T-bolts for your buck.
Ripple
To some degree I agree with this as well, I've fought with Motherships and although their beams are good, it's their pulse cannon that are the weapon you'll use most. They're still good but once you lose out on initiative sinks or manoeuvrability then you'll come back to average. Of course, against fleets like EA, slow Dilgar or Narn you're onto a winner with them.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Kakkarotto_san said:
Eight War points is huge?
Jiraiya
Mongoose
Breaking in my Adira... 
Anyway, he is fielding some Hunters, and while there is no mention in the Fleet book, he tells me that since they have Shadow tech, they can move like ships in the Shadow fleet, pointing out that this was clarified here on the 'Goose boards.
Is this true, because I did a search and can't seem to find anything on the subject. :?:
J
Anyway, he is fielding some Hunters, and while there is no mention in the Fleet book, he tells me that since they have Shadow tech, they can move like ships in the Shadow fleet, pointing out that this was clarified here on the 'Goose boards.
Is this true, because I did a search and can't seem to find anything on the subject. :?:
J
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Jiraiya said:Breaking in my Adira...
Anyway, he is fielding some Hunters, and while there is no mention in the Fleet book, he tells me that since they have Shadow tech, they can move like ships in the Shadow fleet, pointing out that this was clarified here on the 'Goose boards.
Is this true, because I did a search and can't seem to find anything on the subject. :?:
J
I'd say he was using some Jedi mind trick on you from the Dark Side to convince you of that. Nothing I've seen says that Psi Corps is a master of hyperspace..
"meesa no thinkin so, yousa been pooned meesa thinkin..."
Sen. Binks
Not in the least. They are not a shadow ship, merely made with shadow technology. Remember they're a hybrid warship, exactly the same as the shadowtech Omega-x or Nemesis-class - does he claim they get it?.
They don't get any of the shadow fleet special rules any more than the white star gets any vorlon fleet special rules.
You win one free shot with a hardbacked rulebook and fleet book for egregious cheating.
