5' Step and AoA - AE does not clarify!

[ahzad]

The one way I can see this rule working is as follows:

As you have 2 actions in a round, you can take a 5 ft. step as your move action, then fire a single bow shot as your standard action. This would not provoke an AoO.

However, if you take a 5 ft. step as part of a full attack action (i.e. firing multiple shots), you provoke the AoO.

Opinions?

if you look at pg 155 of the AE book you'll find under the actions chart footnote 7. that'll help clear up some of this. And it supports your full attack w/ bow triggers AoO.

I had this problem with combining actions and 5-foot steps, there was a post in the rulesmasters forum, but as of yet there has been no official clarification. But with many rereadings of the 5-foot step rule, finally noticing that footnote, and watching the discussions of this ruling. I'm content to how to handle it.

 

[Ralph]

I'm happy that this is how it should work.

The question that I do have is regarding full attack and AoO.
The chart listing which actions provoke AoOs (p.165 in 1st ed) has full attack not provoking an AoO.

I assume this applies only to melee attacks. It seems odd for a single missile attack to attract an AoO but not multiple shots.

Ralph

 

[Ralph]

The one way I can see this rule working is as follows:

As you have 2 actions in a round, you can take a 5 ft. step as your move action, then fire a single bow shot as your standard action. This would not provoke an AoO.

However, if you take a 5 ft. step as part of a full attack action (i.e. firing multiple shots), you provoke the AoO.

Opinions?

Just to be pedantic.
If you only move 5' as your move action, you will provoke an AoO immediately, as a move will provoke. You must forego your move action, and take a 5' step as a 'no action' to avoid the AoO.

(Regarding d20/3.5/3.0 rules, this is a departure in that the 5' step is a 'No Action'. I don't own this, but I looked at a friends 3.0 PH a while ago, and noticed that 5' step doesn't appear under 'No Action'. It seems to be a deliberate departure, so I think we can rule out any cross-reference.)

I know this is pedantry, but in other circumstances it could be important. Either way, the missile shot is taken from a clear square, so doesn't itself provoke an AoO.

The second point, regarding a full attack action seems right, despite the Actions in Combat chart.

Ralph, splitter of hairs.

 

[Sutek]

Ralph's got it (despite the pedantic interlude there at the end). It's all about what sort of other action is being combined with the 5' step and whether that other action provokes an attack of oportunity or not.

To the interlude, I'm pretty sure that the 5' step never provokes an attack of opporunity. The basis of that assumption is...well...the book says so. I mean, it jsut flat out says "a 5' move never provokes" so it jsut doesn't, folks. What the further text is after wards (the bit about "unless combined with") give the situation that is the exception to the "never". That's the problem with writing rules and using the word "never" - you'd better mean it; not say it and then contradict it in the same sentance. (lol)

Anyway, if Ralph's explanation makes sense to you, then cool. As long as it's clear that Valeria's 5' step does not prokoke an AoO and it all perfectly legal.

 

[Sutek]

For reference, the rule in question (and, hopefully, the grammatical error was the original posters):
Taking a 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless it is combined with another action in the which does.

All this makes the 5ft move into a non-threatened square a "safe step".

Perhaps. But the rule certainly doesn't make that clear. In fact, that is in direct contrast to normal movement rules, where it doesn't matter where you move to, only where from. Where do you get the idea that it is safe into a non-threatened square, but not otherwise?

Not what I said. In fact I said the exact opposite. It's never "safe" to move into a threatened square - thus the word "threatened." Also, moving involves both "where to" and "where from"; either can be a factor in determining if an AoO is provoked. Re-read my examples again, although Ralph did a pretty good job of explaining it already.

 

[SableWyvern]

Sutek: the point I was making is that moving into a threatened square, in and of itself, never provokes an AoO. It is performing an action in a threatened square, including moving out of it, that provokes AoOs.

However, I'm going to bow right out of this discussion until I get a chance to actually look at the rules and form an educated opinion. I'm working from 3.0 and a myriad of Conan interpretations at the moment, rather than first-hand information -- so I'm probably missing something important.

 

[spydacarnage]

Well, with the minor alteration of pedantism from Ralph (I knew what I meant, I just worded it badly!), I think we're now all agreed on what the Conan rules are for a 5 ft. step.

Now all it needs is someone from Mongoose to tell us we're all wrong so we can start all over again... :twisted:

 

[Sutek]

Sutek: the point I was making is that moving into a threatened square, in and of itself, never provokes an AoO. It is performing an action in a threatened square, including moving out of it, that provokes AoOs..

But that's not true. Moving into a threatened square can provoke and AoO if it is the second threatened space of a single individual. If you move into one of my squares, no, but if you move into another, yes.

Again this is why Reach Weapons are so effective in D&D. Not sure why they've decided to omit that rule in Conan.

 

[SableWyvern]

Sutek: in that case, the AoO is caused only by leaving the first threatened square. This can be shown to be the case, because moving from a threatened square to a non-threatened square will also cause the AoO.

There are only two exceptions to this rule (edit: not considered feats which allow AoOs to be ignored, eg, Spring Attack).

One is the the 5' Step, which would not attract an AoO regardless of where you move to (except perhaps in this rather unusual situation we are now discussing -- the fact that this is a unique exception, and not clearly stated, is one of the reasons I disagree with your interpretation).

The other is the withdrawal, which also will not cause an AoO in any circumstance when moving from the starting square, because it is not considered threatened (even if you move to another threatened square). Moving out of a second threatened square will cause an AoO -- again, regardless whether or not the square moved to is threatened.

Can you give an example where moving from a threatened square to a threatened square causes an AoO, but moving from that same threatened square to a non-threatened square (in otherwise identical circumstances) does not?

 

[Sutek]

No, you're right in that I was doing it backwards, Sorry for the confusion, but it does indeed say "moving out of a threatened space" on page 162. It doesn't change what I was saying because it's tantamount to the same thing. However, I see the distiction and where I overlooked that specification.

It did occur to me that because the 5' move does not provoke unless combined with another action that provokes, that could mean that one AOO is possible for the 5' step and one for the action. This woul dnot be possible without the Combat Reflexes Feat, but it would increase the effectiveness of that feat. I've rarely seen it used because most players take Great Cleave and leave few foes alive to make additional AOOs against. Either that, or the PCs position themselves well enough that the additional AOOs are never available due to good tactics. Most often it's the former case, but this could be the intent too (just to throw another wrench into the works.)

In other words, the 5' step does not provoke, but if another action is combined with it that does, that action provokes (1) and then 5' step provokes (2) and anyone with Combat Reflexes can take both of those AOOs against such an opponent.

:?:

 

[SableWyvern]

Nice to have that out of the way.

Regarding Combat Reflexes, though, unless it is changed in Conan, I'm fairly certain that there is a limit of one attack per opponent per round.

 

[ahzad]

Sutek:
However, I'm going to bow right out of this discussion until I get a chance to actually look at the rules and form an educated opinion. I'm working from 3.0 and a myriad of Conan interpretations at the moment, rather than first-hand information -- so I'm probably missing something important.

I posted this in the rulesmasters forum a while back, and since the discussion is in two different areas, something that drives me nuts. This forum should really have a rules sticky for clarifications and errata so you don't have to bounce between two different areas, but that's another discussion.

Something that might help I think is to forget what the SRD/3.0/3.5 has to say on the subject. We're talking Conan which is OGL, and while based on the above rulesets, doesn't need the PHB or the others, it's a stand alone game with it's own ruleset. So ideally we should be interperting the rule from the Conan game alone, at least IMO.

This is the exact quote from the book AE edition pg. 162.
"Take a 5-Foot Step - You can move 5 feet in any round when you do not perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless it is combined with another action in the round that does. You cannot take more than one 5-foot step in a round and you cannot take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance."

And the diagram shows a grid w/ Conan and Valeria battling a pict and Man-Ape. The example shows Valeria taking a 5-foot step away from the pict and firing her bow, and Conan taking a 5-foot step to close w/ the Man-Ape. The diagram texts says "Both Conan and Valeria use 5-foot stops to avoid attacks of opportunity".

The diagram is where the confusion is coming from for some folks.

To add these are a list of actions in combat that provoke an AoO.

Standard Action
Attack (ranged)
Attack (unarmed)
Aid another -maybe (2)
Bull rush
Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time)
Light a torch from a burning taper
Make a dying friend stable (see Heal skill)
Sunder a weapon (attack)
Sunder an object (attack) - maybe (3)
Use a skill that takes 1 action - usually

Move Action
Move
Control a frightened mount
Move a heavy object
Pick up an item
Sheathe a weapon
Stand up from prone
Retrieve a stored item

Full Round Action
Deliver coup de grace
Escape from a net
Light a torch w/ fint and tinder
Load a crossbow
Prepare to throw splash weapon
Run
Use skill that takes 1 round - usually
Use touch spell on up to six friends
Withdraw - maybe

No Action
5-foot step - maybe (7)

Action Type Varies
Disarm (8)
Grapple (8)
Trip an opponent (8)
Use feat - varies (9)

Here are the relevant footnotes
Attack of Opportunity - Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an AoO. This column (I just listed the relevant actions instead of recreating the chart) indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an AoO.

2 - If you aid someone performing an action that would normally provoke an AoO, then the act of aiding another provokes an AoO as well.

3 - If the object is being held, carried, or worn by a creature , yes. If not, no.

7 - A five-foot step provokes an AoO if it is made as part of (or combined with) an action that would do so, such as using the Full Attack action with a bow. Otherwise it does not..

8 - These attack form substitiute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks they can be used one in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an AoO.

9 - The description of the a feat defines its effect.

There I think I've covered all the relevant bits from the Conan AE edition on 5-Steps and AoO's. If not just ask and I'll try to clear them up. Hopefully this well help in the discussion of this topic.

 

[Sutek]

7 - A five-foot step provokes an AoO if it is made as part of (or combined with) an action that would do so, such as using the Full Attack action with a bow. Otherwise it does not.

All of what you said is true. It's this bit above which has got us all confused. Here's the way I see it break down now after we've all discussed it at length:

A) 5' step alone - Does Not Provoke
B) 5' step + Non-Provoking action - Does Not Provoke
C) 5' Step + Provoking action - 5' step provokes; does Provokinmg action also provoke?

I think that's what we're trying to work out. The Valeria example doesn't get to answering this because she makes her 5' move to a non-threatened square and then takes her action that would normally provoke (shooting). My interpretation is that she's moved to where there's no threat of AOO, so she can now shoot normally. However, the rule reads that the 5' step provokes if the action taken in the same round does, so it seems that she should provoke an AOO when leaving that fisrt square and the example illustration is incorrect. Furthmore, what the ruel specifically says is that the 5' step does not provoke unless the action it is combined with does, in which case it woul dseem that both the act of taking the 5' step and the shooting standard action should provoke, for a total of 2 AOOs when Valeria leaves the initial threatened space.

The more I look at it, I see the latter being the case. You're free and clear unless you 5' step and do something to provoke an AOO. If you do, both the step and the action provoke (the action doesn't cease provocation just because it's combined with the step, in other words) and enemies ought to get a minimum of 1 AOO; more than that with Combat Reflexes.

But thanks for typing up the provoking actions. That helps the discussion a lot because it keeps me from having to keep looking them up or spreading the GM screen accross my desk... :lol:

 

[SableWyvern]

Thanks, Ahzad.

First up, that full description of the actual rule makes something seem clear to me -- the earlier suggestion that the ranged attack, as a standard action, does not combine with the Step, is wrong. The rule says "combined with another action in the round".

Second, this goes back to my earlier comments regarding what is "an action that provokes an AoO". IMO, this is anything Ahzad listed above. Hence, Attack (ranged) provokes an AoO. Combine this with a 5' Step, and you provoke an AoO.

In the example, Valeria's 5' Step should have provoked an AoO from Enemy A.

To move onto one of Sutek's points, if Valeria had stepped into another character's (Enemy B) threatened square to take her shot, the bow fire would have attracted an AoO from Enemy B. The 5' Step, since it was made from Enemy A's threatened square, would not have attracted an AoO from Enemy B. Similarly, the bow fire does not attract from A, only B.

If Enemy A has reach, then, and only then, both the bow fire and the step attract from A.

All that, though, hinges on the interpretation above in italics. Obviously, Sutek and I look at things differently here. A comment from a Mongoose would be very, very useful.

 

[ahzad]

I think that's what we're trying to work out. The Valeria example doesn't get to answering this because she makes her 5' move to a non-threatened square and then takes her action that would normally provoke (shooting). My interpretation is that she's moved to where there's no threat of AOO, so she can now shoot normally. However, the rule reads that the 5' step provokes if the action taken in the same round does, so it seems that she should provoke an AOO when leaving that fisrt square and the example illustration is incorrect. Furthmore, what the ruel specifically says is that the 5' step does not provoke unless the action it is combined with does, in which case it woul dseem that both the act of taking the 5' step and the shooting standard action should provoke, for a total of 2 AOOs when Valeria leaves the initial threatened space.

But thanks for typing up the provoking actions. That helps the discussion a lot because it keeps me from having to keep looking them up or spreading the GM screen accross my desk... :lol:

Not a problem I got tired of refering to my rulebook especially when I was at work trying to follow this.

In my interpertion I definately see Valeria getting pasted by an AoO b/c she takes the step and fires, all part of the same action to me, maybe I'm being to literal here, but the way I see it she's backpeddling to take the shot her full concentration isn't on her opponent she's also taking in her surroundings and getting ready to shoot. I expect it to be this way b/c Conan combat is much more deadly and nasty compared to D&D. To avoid an AoO she would have to take a 5-step to take her out of the area and then the next round hope the pict didn't advance then shoot at least that's how I see it in my mind. I do wish we could get some official response b/c otherwise it's all just fan interpertations and whilel it's good discussion it doesn't set it anything as a standard.

 

[Sutek]

No, to avoid it, she should draw her sword and just hack him OR conduct a Withdraw move and then set up to shoot from there.

I'm seeing it dort of like the 5' step provokes as well as the Shooting Action so there's a total of 2 AOOs to take advantage of if the enemy she's moving away from can manage it. After all, the Shooting action provokes, and the 5' step does if the action does, so that's really two provocations. Most often, the enemy is only goin got be able to eal a single AOO, but more is possible with te Combat Reflexes Feat.

 

[ahzad]

No, to avoid it, she should draw her sword and just hack him OR conduct a Withdraw move and then set up to shoot from there.

I'm seeing it dort of like the 5' step provokes as well as the Shooting Action so there's a total of 2 AOOs to take advantage of if the enemy she's moving away from can manage it. After all, the Shooting action provokes, and the 5' step does if the action does, so that's really two provocations. Most often, the enemy is only goin got be able to eal a single AOO, but more is possible with te Combat Reflexes Feat.

I almost put those two options in there

I only see one AoO, b/c they aren't really two seperate actions. They are a combined action in the round. You are taking a 5-step and shooting. The shot from range normally wouldn't provoke but you are 5-stepping (combining) which is the trigger that allows that one AoO.

 

[Sutek]

I only see one AoO, b/c they aren't really two seperate actions. They are a combined action in the round. You are taking a 5-step and shooting. The shot from range normally wouldn't provoke but you are 5-stepping (combining) which is the trigger that allows that one AoO.

Yeah, I guess so, since a 5' Step is a "no Action" and not a "Move Equivalent Action."

 

[Mayhem]

I'm going with the idea that the 5 foot step doesn't provoke an AoO.

This is for two reasons.

1) Thats the default in the SRD on which conan is based, and no great effort has been made to directly contradict this.

2) Doing otherwise reduces the point of their being a 5 foot step in the first place. If you provoke an AoO from step and shoot, you might as well just shoot, so why both including 5 foot steps.

AoOs and 5-foot steps are artificial constructs to prevent abuse of the turn system.

The 5 foot step allows those who need a little space to fight effectively to get it, since IRL, you could shoot and/or retreat whilst being charged without having to stand around like a lemon waiting for your opponent to get within 5 feet.

 

[SableWyvern]

First, I see I was wrong about Combat Reflexes. Is that unique to Conan, or a 3.5 thing?

On the main issue, having a copy of the rules now, and reading through the relevent sections, I maintain my original opinion. I can see where you're coming from a lot clearer now, though, Sutek. I put it down to ambiguous phrasing and and incorrect example though, rather than intent.