3rd Edition.
- Thread starter Stonehorse
- Start date
GhostRecon
Mongoose
Or fix Boresight, to alleviate the problem in the first place...
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
Which means fixing initiative. Boresight is just a symptom.
GhostRecon
Mongoose
The initiative system seems to work fine, right up until you reach boresight, and the initiative system is essentially the "Third Rail" of ACTA, no proposed system seems to win much favor regardless.
So, just how flawed is initiative? The only real complaint that occurs is with boresights and initiative sinks; however, which is easier to fix? Implementing some measure to Boresight, to enable it to still target, something as simple as being able to target a ship with a boresight weapon within 2 inches of its stem (Or, alternatively, implement "ship sizes" where they "exist" that many inches from the stem to represent the size of a ship) or other systems, such as Follow That Target, Raking Fire, or any other modal system presented as a solution, or extremely complex, a system of overwatch/etc.
Alternatively, find a way to modify the initiative system to preserve it in as much a form as possible as it exists now, yet balance it in such a manner as to fix Boresight. Roll initiative for individual ships, for example.
Ultimately, the question is which is simplier, and which opts to create a solution that doesn't create more problems.
So, just how flawed is initiative? The only real complaint that occurs is with boresights and initiative sinks; however, which is easier to fix? Implementing some measure to Boresight, to enable it to still target, something as simple as being able to target a ship with a boresight weapon within 2 inches of its stem (Or, alternatively, implement "ship sizes" where they "exist" that many inches from the stem to represent the size of a ship) or other systems, such as Follow That Target, Raking Fire, or any other modal system presented as a solution, or extremely complex, a system of overwatch/etc.
Alternatively, find a way to modify the initiative system to preserve it in as much a form as possible as it exists now, yet balance it in such a manner as to fix Boresight. Roll initiative for individual ships, for example.
Ultimately, the question is which is simplier, and which opts to create a solution that doesn't create more problems.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
Boresights merely show up the flaws in the initiative system more obviously than the other arcs - the flaws are still there regardless, and "fixing" boresight itself will merely be a poor bandaid that still leaves the problems in place. Overall, a possible fix for 2nd Ed, but not something you want to be carrying over into 3rd Ed.
The main problem is that at the moment, nimble ships can effectively transfer their nimbleness to much less nimble ships by moving first. This means that all of a sudden you can have Omegas outmanouvering White Stars, purely because some Tethys were hiding in the corner. What's needed is a system that recognises that the Omega is the bulkier ship of the lot, and (possibly barring lucky rolling), forces it to be moved before the Tethys.
Seeing as we're talking about a whole new edition here, we can easily add/change the stats on ships, so it's easy enough to specify which order the ship classes sould be moving in. The simplest method would be to keep the current initiative system, but have each player activate their ships in the order specified by the new stat. Another option would be to roll once for initiative for the fleet, but each ship uses the new stat as a modifier to gain the ship's own initiative. Going to the extent of having each ship roll separately for its own initiative would be nice, but too much work for the tabletop - it would be great for computerised versions though.
The main problem is that at the moment, nimble ships can effectively transfer their nimbleness to much less nimble ships by moving first. This means that all of a sudden you can have Omegas outmanouvering White Stars, purely because some Tethys were hiding in the corner. What's needed is a system that recognises that the Omega is the bulkier ship of the lot, and (possibly barring lucky rolling), forces it to be moved before the Tethys.
Seeing as we're talking about a whole new edition here, we can easily add/change the stats on ships, so it's easy enough to specify which order the ship classes sould be moving in. The simplest method would be to keep the current initiative system, but have each player activate their ships in the order specified by the new stat. Another option would be to roll once for initiative for the fleet, but each ship uses the new stat as a modifier to gain the ship's own initiative. Going to the extent of having each ship roll separately for its own initiative would be nice, but too much work for the tabletop - it would be great for computerised versions though.
It would be interesting to hear if Mongoose play tested any other system when they first developed the game. Is there anyone on the forum that was on the inital play test team that could answer, since Mathew rarely visits.
I like the idea of rolling for each ship instead of a I go You Go. This is used in several other game system and seems to work fine. It would alos make Admirals with the +2 Initiative modifer and Re-Roll traits more attractive.
Just my 2 cents.
I like the idea of rolling for each ship instead of a I go You Go. This is used in several other game system and seems to work fine. It would alos make Admirals with the +2 Initiative modifer and Re-Roll traits more attractive.
Just my 2 cents.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Before he started Mongoose, Matthew did some work for Games Workshop, including Battlefleet Gothic.
eldiablito
Mongoose
I like the idea that every ship gets an initiative stat (one that uses the fleet initiative as a base and then adjusts it based on how nimble the ship is supposed to be). How hard would it be to roll a die and leave it next to every ship to represent said ship's turn in the game? Only in cases of ties can the player decide which goes first.
Now, if you have 2 Hyperions, 1 Omega, 1 Oracle and 2 Hermes, you roll 1 die per ship and hope for the best: Obviously the Omega would have the worst initiative of the bunch so perhaps you would roll their initiative, add the race's base INT (EA has a +1) and then add a ship modifier (for the Omega, it would be something like a -2). I would believe that most ships, like the Hyperions and Oracle, would have no INT modifier and the Hermes, being a tiny and agile ship, would get a small bonus (like another +1). So, if you rolled a 3, 5 for the Hyperions, 2 for the Omega, 6 for the Oracle and 1, 5 for the Hermes, there would be a net INT for each ship: Hyperion ships would be at a net 4, 6, the Omega would be at 1, the Oracle would be at 6 and the Hermes would be at 3 and 7. In effect, your opponent would know that the order of your movements (not necessarily your shooting) would be the Omega, Hermes, Hyperion, Hyperion/ Oracle (then the other one), and finally the Hermes.
You could always create clauses that nothing can go below 0 so that there would be no worry about negative numbers. Finally, squadrons would have to use the worst initiative of the ship.
Finally, this would create a new and interesting critical effect as well. As a base, use the speed reductions to also effect their initiative (with Adrift as setting the net INT of a ship to 0).
For those who thinks that this is too much book keeping or too much math, I have tested something very similar for a different game system (one that never got published). The system seems very complicated if you do all the work, write it down on paper or try to keep it in your head. The system is very quick if you just leave the net INT total as dice, next to each ship and then remove the dice as they move (respectively).
The only downer to this scenario is that the Omega will rarely, if ever, getting a shot off with it's boresight. So, adjustments would have to be made to specific ships too.
Now, if you have 2 Hyperions, 1 Omega, 1 Oracle and 2 Hermes, you roll 1 die per ship and hope for the best: Obviously the Omega would have the worst initiative of the bunch so perhaps you would roll their initiative, add the race's base INT (EA has a +1) and then add a ship modifier (for the Omega, it would be something like a -2). I would believe that most ships, like the Hyperions and Oracle, would have no INT modifier and the Hermes, being a tiny and agile ship, would get a small bonus (like another +1). So, if you rolled a 3, 5 for the Hyperions, 2 for the Omega, 6 for the Oracle and 1, 5 for the Hermes, there would be a net INT for each ship: Hyperion ships would be at a net 4, 6, the Omega would be at 1, the Oracle would be at 6 and the Hermes would be at 3 and 7. In effect, your opponent would know that the order of your movements (not necessarily your shooting) would be the Omega, Hermes, Hyperion, Hyperion/ Oracle (then the other one), and finally the Hermes.
You could always create clauses that nothing can go below 0 so that there would be no worry about negative numbers. Finally, squadrons would have to use the worst initiative of the ship.
Finally, this would create a new and interesting critical effect as well. As a base, use the speed reductions to also effect their initiative (with Adrift as setting the net INT of a ship to 0).
For those who thinks that this is too much book keeping or too much math, I have tested something very similar for a different game system (one that never got published). The system seems very complicated if you do all the work, write it down on paper or try to keep it in your head. The system is very quick if you just leave the net INT total as dice, next to each ship and then remove the dice as they move (respectively).
The only downer to this scenario is that the Omega will rarely, if ever, getting a shot off with it's boresight. So, adjustments would have to be made to specific ships too.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
In some ways though, I can see it being a bonus that larger ships like the Omega will have more problems getting a boresight against more nimble targets. Boresight weapons will mainly become weapons to use against bigger ships, or ships of similar manoueverability if you're willing to accept that you can't just fire the weapon constantly. With this in mind, you can then beef up the larger ships, either by upping their non-boresight firepower, or by upping the boresight weapon to make it a more devestating weapon (you don't get to fire this often, but when you do... ouch!).
Another bonus is that you don't need to worry about less nimble ships constantly evading White Stars, and as such you can then give the White Star back it's boresight.
Another bonus is that you don't need to worry about less nimble ships constantly evading White Stars, and as such you can then give the White Star back it's boresight.
When I read stuff like the above, I like my idea even more. Making Lumbering ships move first is a) Simple and b) means initiative will still serve its purpose.
ACTA is nice and simple and fast. If I want to start tracking loads of bs for every individual ship there are lots of other systems I could use.
ACTA is nice and simple and fast. If I want to start tracking loads of bs for every individual ship there are lots of other systems I could use.
reyamc2001
Mongoose
I really like the idea of lumbering ships moving before nonlumbering. The only problem I see would be that there could be games where a boresight ship like the omega NEVER gets to use its boresight because it is always moving first.
But then you're losing the initiative.. so it makes sense. I see the point though that if the other player doesn't have any lumbering ships it would make it difficult for yours. But.. shouldn't it be difficult? Also it's a balance while still allowing for different play styles type of thing. Boresight Beams are a high-risk high-reward type of weapon.
I'd say if you did the lumbering move first you might use that to replace the current trait, allowing the ship to turn mid-move.
Another option along the same lines is start with the highest PL ships and work your way down?
Just ideas, they'd need playtesting of course.
j.,
I'd say if you did the lumbering move first you might use that to replace the current trait, allowing the ship to turn mid-move.
Another option along the same lines is start with the highest PL ships and work your way down?
Just ideas, they'd need playtesting of course.
j.,
I had a thougth that you could have each side move a whole fleet action pt per side. This would limit the ability of the swarm fleets. Also it would give the lumbering ships more opportunity to use bore-sight. If a side gains an advantage of a fleet action pt then the other player would move a fleet action pt at a time and then at the end of movement he would move 1/2 a fleet action pt for the one pt to even it out.
EDFDarkAngel1
Mongoose
We could use the Warhammer 40k fleet rules, maybe a bit less restrictive. Take 1 War and you have to take 2 Battle, 3 Raid, and 6 Skirmish. Or something like that.
Dark Angel
Dark Angel
