2e trade question

[-Daniel-]

I just realized I might be doing something wrong. When I apply the World Population and Starport, I have only been applying it once based on the system I am in. But having read something I am curious if I should apply it also based on the system I am going to go to? I know in 1e they had both in the calculation, but for some reason I just began only adding in the DM once. Did I mess this up?

EDIT: Sorry be clear, I am thinking of the rules around passengers or hauling freight.

 

[EldritchFire]

I just realized I might be doing something wrong. When I apply the World Population and Starport, I have only been applying it once based on the system I am in. But having read something I am curious if I should apply it also based on the system I am going to go to? I know in 1e they had both in the calculation, but for some reason I just began only adding in the DM once. Did I mess this up?

I do not believe so. You only apply the modifiers for the world you are on. The modifiers for your world of sale are applied to the die roll for the sale price.

 

[-Daniel-]

I just realized I might be doing something wrong. When I apply the World Population and Starport, I have only been applying it once based on the system I am in. But having read something I am curious if I should apply it also based on the system I am going to go to? I know in 1e they had both in the calculation, but for some reason I just began only adding in the DM once. Did I mess this up?

I do not believe so. You only apply the modifiers for the world you are on. The modifiers for your world of sale are applied to the die roll for the sale price.

I agree, if I am buying and selling. But if they are just passengers or freight I am hauling there is no sale at the other end. Just want to make sure I am doing tis right.

 

[mancerbear]

I agree, if I am buying and selling. But if they are just passengers or freight I am hauling there is no sale at the other end. Just want to make sure I am doing tis right.

Apply both. At least that's what I have been doing and it seems to work. It makes no sense to me that the destination world would have no impact on the amount of passage or freight available.

 

[EldritchFire]

I just realized I might be doing something wrong. When I apply the World Population and Starport, I have only been applying it once based on the system I am in. But having read something I am curious if I should apply it also based on the system I am going to go to? I know in 1e they had both in the calculation, but for some reason I just began only adding in the DM once. Did I mess this up?

I do not believe so. You only apply the modifiers for the world you are on. The modifiers for your world of sale are applied to the die roll for the sale price.

I agree, if I am buying and selling. But if they are just passengers or freight I am hauling there is no sale at the other end. Just want to make sure I am doing tis right.

The post's title said 'Trade' so I assumed speculative trading. My bad.

 

[-Daniel-]

The post's title said 'Trade' so I assumed speculative trading. My bad.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse. I used Trade because that is the chapter the rules are in. But I should have been a little more clear in my questions.

I will add a note to my original question.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It's not well defined in the rules.

See recent discussion: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119403

 

[-Daniel-]

It's not well defined in the rules.

See recent discussion: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119403

Yep, I agree. Not clear as it could be. But I do agree with your logical suggestion in the other thread. Also I don't know how I missed the other thread as I did search first. Guess my search roll must have been a 2. :mrgreen:

Thanks for the URL.

 

[PsiTraveller]

1st edition Merchant Prince had this to say on the matter. They may change it in 2nd edition, but here was the first edition thinking.

"To determine the number of cargos available, add the destination
planet’s Population value to the modifiers from the Freight Traffi c
table, then consult the Freight Lots Available table." pg 65

So the demand for freight is affected by the population at the destination world. This is modified by the chart on page 66 which has destination and current trade code modifiers on it. So if the Current world is Rich for example you get +2 on the roll, and if the target world is also Rich you get another +2.

It makes some sense. If you are shipping goods to a planet of 10 000 people they are not going to have as much demand for goods as a planet of 10 Million people.

 

[-Daniel-]

1st edition Merchant Prince had this to say on the matter. They may change it in 2nd edition, but here was the first edition thinking.

"To determine the number of cargos available, add the destination
planet’s Population value to the modifiers from the Freight Traffi c
table, then consult the Freight Lots Available table." pg 65

So the demand for freight is affected by the population at the destination world. This is modified by the chart on page 66 which has destination and current trade code modifiers on it. So if the Current world is Rich for example you get +2 on the roll, and if the target world is also Rich you get another +2.

It makes some sense. If you are shipping goods to a planet of 10 000 people they are not going to have as much demand for goods as a planet of 10 Million people.

I would imagine it could be impacted by both. a planet with 100 people would not make as much cargo for the destination planet to want either. :wink:

 

[PsiTraveller]

If the planet has Lo Pop designation it has a -5 DM to the roll, so current population does have an impact.

The new rules for Space Stations could alter things. It would be an interesting challenge to build a small mining and production facility with 100 people and see what they could produce per week for shipping out of System for sale. The increase in productivity for higher TL's means a small crew can produce a fair amount of material.

I will make a TL 13 production platform that produces goods for market.
There is a disconnect between producing raw materials and calculating what finished goods you can produce, but I will fake the numbers together and explain the hand wavey parts.

 

[-Daniel-]

If the planet has Lo Pop designation it has a -5 DM to the roll, so current population does have an impact.

But the rules as written now in 2e it does not specify if you use the planet you are on, the planet you are going to, or both. The thing I was asking about in the original post. Once again, I accept that there are lots of possible answers from old editions. I would like to know what was the thought for this edition, Mongoose Traveller 2e.

 

[alex_greene]

If the planet has Lo Pop designation it has a -5 DM to the roll, so current population does have an impact.

But the rules as written now in 2e it does not specify if you use the planet you are on, the planet you are going to, or both. The thing I was asking about in the original post. Once again, I accept that there are lots of possible answers from old editions. I would like to know what was the thought for this edition, Mongoose Traveller 2e.

The planet you are on. It's where they currently are that is important; where they are going to is not.

The roll is to determine general passenger availability on the world they are on, not destination or length of passage.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Having re-read the 2nd edition rules and overcome my practice of tying it to 1st edition I realize that they dropped the Population section on purpose.
1st edition had you use Current population for passengers and Destination population for Freight demand.

2nd edition drops that completely for a new mechanic and new Passenger and Freight charts.

So please ignore any advice about 1st edition. my bad. They have revamped things to make things easier for players to do good business in space.

On a more capitalistic note, I think there is a hell of a lot more Traveling in Traveller. There is more Freight moving as well.

1st edition had half of the Effect of a Broker, Carouse or Streetwise for a Passenger DM. 2nd edition has the full Effect for a DM. Nice A few levels of Broker or Carouse will mean a +1 or +2 to the Freight or Passenger Value
The tables for 2nd edition are a lot more productive than 1st edition, by a lot.

Passengers:
1st Edition had you calculate out your Passenger Traffic Value using the various DM's, then you looked at the chart. If your Value was a 2 you had 2D Low Passenger. 1D-2 Middle and 0 High passengers.
2nd Edition has you roll 3 times for Low, Middle and High Passage and then calculate the final value. Suppose you rolled and had modifiers that resulted in a value of 2 for every passenger type. That is still 1D low passengers, 1D Middle Passengers, and 1D High Passengers. So a Passenger carrying ship will likely be able to fill cabins if they have a good Broker and Steward.


Freight:

The same issues/changes for the freight table
A value of 2 Freight Value in 1st edition had 0 Incidental, 0 Minor and 1D6-4 Major Lots available.
2nd Edition has you rolling a 2D for every type of freight and using the modifiers. An average roll on a 2D will mean there are several major and minor lots of cargo to choose from.
The -4 for Major Cargo lot -DM can be overcome by going to a Class B Starport or better, a couple levels in Broker to get a +DM on the check, and dealing on a TL 9 or better planet for another +2.

 

[alex_greene]

They have revamped things to make things easier for players to do good business in space.

Nobody else seemed to be wanting to run the Trade, vehicle combat or psionics rules, so I gave each of them a go. The result was the wording for dogfighting and improved Evade writeup, the trade section in the current book, and the Reach attribute of psionic abilities.

Everybody else was moving on to High Guard and going over the fleet combat and ship design. I just focused on bits that nobody else seemed to be interested in. And now passengers and freight are a bit less of a nightmare.

Even the tables are a refinement of something I gave to them to play with.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Well I like it. It does mean that a Broker 2 with a good Int or Soc skill and a high tech planet of TL 9 or more overcomes the -4 DM for freight of Major Lots. (Average roll 7 + 3 for skill and stat bonus plus Tech bonus)
So large amounts of cargo and passengers. (Same Broker or Carouse or Streetwise check + the Steward level to get High Passengers.) This means serious money to small ships.

Thanks for redoing the tables!

 

[-Daniel-]

The planet you are on. It's where they currently are that is important; where they are going to is not.

The roll is to determine general passenger availability on the world they are on, not destination or length of passage.

Great, thanks for clarification. Might I be so bold as to suggest this explanation or at least something telling a new player what is expected?

Seems having an example might do it. :mrgreen:

 

[PsiTraveller]

Second Edition Passenger Advertising
Broker Skill 2, Carouse 2 Streetwise 2
Stat bonus 1 : Total bonus +3 for whichever skill you use.

Chief Steward Skill 2 (Can handle 20 High Passengers, pg 206)

Current Planet: Deneb B537ADD-C

Effect of Broker, Carouse or Streetwise check: Assume 7 on 2D roll, +3 -8 is Effect 2
Rank 2 Steward is +2
Seeking High Passengers: -4
Population A : +3
Starport B: +1
Total Modifiers: +4 DM
2D roll: Average 7 (+4) = 11 for 4D passengers seeking high passage

Medium Passage: Same numbers but +4 for result because of the removal of the -4 for High Passenger modifier for 15 (5D Medium Passage), and 16 for Low Passage *6 D Passengers)

Freight:
Same Broker Score, same Planet: J2 destination

Effect of Broker Check: +2 DM
major Cargo: -4
Population: +4
Starport B : +1
Tech 9 or more: +2
Total: +5 DM
Roll: average 7 on 2D: Result is 12: 5D Major Cargo Lots (average will be 17 lots of cargo at 35 tons a lot)

Minor Cargo: 16 on Result (no -4 for Major Lots) 6D Lots Minor Lots: so 21 Lots of Cargo at 17.5 tons average each lot
Incidental Cargo will be 17 on result for 7D Lots of Incidental Cargo, or 24 Tons of Cargo on average.

So a lot more cargo is available in 2nd edition.

Can anyone else check my numbers? Did I screw up anywhere?