2300AD - A suggestion

[TrippyHippy]

That's the print run, but graph it by year:

View attachment 5305

Traveller was no longer the best selling rulesset. Twilight: 2000 overtook Traveller in 1985-6. Remember, this is all materials, including supplements etc.

Well, the claim was that Twilight: 2000 was GDW’s biggest selling game. It clearly wasn’t over time and the chart doesn’t include the data following 1986 - Mega Traveller was released in 1987 as a replacement new edition of Traveller and, I’d imagine at least would have overtaken Twilight: 2000 sales again. Classic Traveller probably wasn’t producing much new stuff in 1985 and 1986 to sell.

Either way, Twilight 2000 in no way replicated the overall success of Traveller, even when it was first released. GDW as a whole had declining sales from the late 80s onwards.

 

[Avollant]

what really killed GDW was the Desert Storm Factbook, much more so than the lawsuit, and the reason for the Desert Storm Factbook was the out of the park succsess of the Desert Shield Factbook. that made them more money than they knew what to do with.

I recommend Shannon Applecline's EXCELLENT book "This is Free Trader Beowulf: a System History of Traveller" for a really fascinating in depth history of what happened.

I agree

 

[boggo2300]

Well, the claim was that Twilight: 2000 was GDW’s biggest selling game. It clearly wasn’t over time and the chart doesn’t include the data following 1986 - Mega Traveller was released in 1987 as a replacement new edition of Traveller and, I’d imagine at least would have overtaken Twilight: 2000 sales again. Classic Traveller probably wasn’t producing much new stuff in 1985 and 1986 to sell.

Either way, Twilight 2000 in no way replicated the overall success of Traveller, even when it was first released. GDW as a whole had declining sales from the late 80s onwards.

Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say or even imply "over time" I said it was their biggest selling game while 2300AD was out, and it was. It would be silly to expect a game on sale for 3 years during an industry downturn to sell more copies than something that had been on sale for a decade, most of which was during the industries BOOM period...

 

[TrippyHippy]

Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say or even imply "over time" I said it was their biggest selling game while 2300AD was out, and it was. It would be silly to expect a game on sale for 3 years during an industry downturn to sell more copies than something that had been on sale for a decade, most of which was during the industries BOOM period...

You said, and I quote:

Twilight was, I think it may have been GDW's biggest selling game

It wasn’t.

 

[boggo2300]

You said, and I quote:

It wasn’t.

yes it was, look at the chart for 2 of the three years that were being discussed it outsold Traveller

 

[TrippyHippy]

yes it was, look at the chart for 2 of the three years that were being discussed it outsold Traveller

No it wasn’t. Look at the overall numbers and learn to add up. It doesn’t even come close and it doesn’t even get to the point of taking into account the release of Mega Traveller or any other later editions of Traveller from 1987 onwards which all add to the tally. Twilight 2000 may have had a slight, temporary overtaking when the Classic Traveller line was ending after a near decade of sales -but that is it. Moreover, you didn’t specify anything about particular years - you simply made the broad claim, as quoted, that Twilight: 2000 was "GDW’s biggest selling game”. Your arguments here are utterly jejune. Stop wasting my day.

 

[sda5691]

Another several thoughts...

1. A series of Chinese Arm adventures... that actually involve the Chinese [OK, Manchurians, but you get my point]
2. A cohesive American Arm campaign, perhaps some Aussie vs. America shenanigans. Just because they're allies doesn't mean that they don't have cross-cutting agendas.
3. A comprehensive anti-terrorist campaign that shadows the Kafer War. 'We're not fighting bugs, we're fighting us!'
4. Adventures that address some of the political tensions... Germany trying to woo Bavarian colonies into the fold, Mexico getting sucked into a Rio Plata War, the Manchurian effort to deal with its warlord problems, etc.
5. The first Russian colony effort
6. A series of sourcebooks dealing multi-nats, terrorist groups, criminal cartels etc.
And basically anything that doesn't deal with the French Empire, direct combat with Kafers, or AmeriCo.

Also, a clear statement as to whether or not Colin Dunn's 2320 is canon or not.

Colin himself, sadly, has disavowed 2320AD. Whether Mongoose goes with that or not is up to them, as is every other question- as the IP holder- regarding what is canon.

 

[ottarrus]

Colin himself, sadly, has disavowed 2320AD. Whether Mongoose goes with that or not is up to them, as is every other question- as the IP holder- regarding what is canon.

He was going through a really tough part of his life when he was writing it, so I can see where he may not think it was his best work.
And let's be honest here.... solving the 'Kafer problem' with a bioweapon isn't exactly the most ethical solution. It's the most realistic, but if you have any moral convictions at all it takes some real rationalizing to justify.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Many better solutions were offered, you may still be able to see the discussions on CotI. My two favourites:

the use of coffee to permanently trigger Kafer intelligence

Pentapods manufacture of a drug gland leach to either keep the Kafer docile or raise them to intelligence then bargain with their leaders...

 

[boggo2300]

the Kafer weren't a problem that needed solving was the biggest mistake

 

[sda5691]

He was going through a really tough part of his life when he was writing it, so I can see where he may not think it was his best work.
And let's be honest here.... solving the 'Kafer problem' with a bioweapon isn't exactly the most ethical solution. It's the most realistic, but if you have any moral convictions at all it takes some real rationalizing to justify.

"Our extinction or theirs" is a pretty strong motivator. Lutke did the right thing, IMO.

 

[ottarrus]

"Our extinction or theirs" is a pretty strong motivator. Lutke did the right thing, IMO.

And this is where we get to the rationalizations...
Understand, I'm making no judgemental pronouncements here. I'm only noting that 'what do we do about the Kafers' is a moral and ethical issue to must wrestled with.
I want to make another point that many of us are missing:
The people of 2300 have significantly different values than we do today. They are more environmentally aware, they're opinions are more unified, and, well, more French. The fulcrum of the world is no long Anglic speaking. For 200 years it's been French, with French conceits, attitudes, leadership and solutions. Some points to remember:
- There is a significant disconnect between the Twilight and 'now'; Much of the knowledge infrastructure was lost in the nuclear holocaust and nobody in 2300 even knows why the Twilight War was fought or who even started it. It is described as an almost 2-century gap in history;
- The people of 2300 understand on a visceral level that humanity almost killed itself and the Earth along with it. Between pollution, nuclear fallout and widespread CBW [chemical and biological warfare] zones, a significant part of the world was rendered uninhabitable and two centuries of cleanup efforts are still ongoing;
- The Kafer represent a vision out of nightmare for an intelligence descended from monkey troops in the Serengeti... The Kafer are vicious and implacable. They cannot be reasoned with, negotiated with, or placated. They must fought, tooth and nail, and the ugly truth is that they're better at it than we are.
- At the end of the Kafer War, ESA nations looked at the wreckage, counted the costs, buried their dead, and then realized that within 10 years [possibly sooner], humanity was going to have to do it all over again. And then 10 years after that, and 10 years after that in ad nauseum;
- And humans like permanent solution. It's wired into our problem solving processes. The idea of that they'd have to fight a life or death battle with the Kafer every half generation was unacceptable.
So what to do?

 

[Sigtrygg]

You find out that the top tier of kafers are permanently smart and do a deal with them, as they don't want to be genocided either.

But since you mentioned the French, they would eat them, fried in garlic and butter.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And this is where we get to the rationalizations...
Understand, I'm making no judgemental pronouncements here. I'm only noting that 'what do we do about the Kafers' is a moral and ethical issue to must wrestled with.
I want to make another point that many of us are missing:
The people of 2300 have significantly different values than we do today. They are more environmentally aware, they're opinions are more unified, and, well, more French. The fulcrum of the world is no long Anglic speaking. For 200 years it's been French, with French conceits, attitudes, leadership and solutions. Some points to remember:
- There is a significant disconnect between the Twilight and 'now'; Much of the knowledge infrastructure was lost in the nuclear holocaust and nobody in 2300 even knows why the Twilight War was fought or who even started it. It is described as an almost 2-century gap in history;
- The people of 2300 understand on a visceral level that humanity almost killed itself and the Earth along with it. Between pollution, nuclear fallout and widespread CBW [chemical and biological warfare] zones, a significant part of the world was rendered uninhabitable and two centuries of cleanup efforts are still ongoing;
- The Kafer represent a vision out of nightmare for an intelligence descended from monkey troops in the Serengeti... The Kafer are vicious and implacable. They cannot be reasoned with, negotiated with, or placated. They must fought, tooth and nail, and the ugly truth is that they're better at it than we are.
- At the end of the Kafer War, ESA nations looked at the wreckage, counted the costs, buried their dead, and then realized that within 10 years [possibly sooner], humanity was going to have to do it all over again. And then 10 years after that, and 10 years after that in ad nauseum;
- And humans like permanent solution. It's wired into our problem solving processes. The idea of that they'd have to fight a life or death battle with the Kafer every half generation was unacceptable.
So what to do?

The French are in charge? Humanity surrenders, a huge number are annihilated and the rest form one hell of a resistance. The French way since after Napolean.

 

[ottarrus]

Gwydion, you mistake French government for French soldiers.
Since the disaster at Sedan and the two idiots of Gamelin and Weygand, I can run you down a list of seriously talented and smart French commanders who would have been a Hell of a lot more famous and respected had they had the benefits of US resources and determined men like Eisenhower and LBJ in their government.
Let me give you a few to look up, if you happen to be curious:
- Pierre Jeanpierre, Legion paratroop commander
- Marcel Bigeard, paratroop commander and unconventional warfare theorist
- Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, WWII and Indochina armored commander
I get all this because I had a friend I served with 'down South' who couldn't cope with civilian life after he got out. He eventually sold everything, partied for a week, and then flew to Marseilles and joined the Legion. When I last heard from him, right around the turn of the Millennium, he was a maraschal de logis chef [equivalent to a US Sergeant First Class] in his third hitch. Because of him, I got interested in French military history and why 'tha Frogs' have the reputation they do.
A respected historian that I like a lot [Liddell-Hart] had a quote that really sums it up: 'Never has an honest soldier been as ill-treated by the government he serves as the French poilu.' ['Poilu' is 'hairy one', the equivalent to 'Tommy', 'Yank', or 'Landser']

 

[MasterGwydion]

Gwydion, you mistake French government for French soldiers.
Since the disaster at Sedan and the two idiots of Gamelin and Weygand, I can run you down a list of seriously talented and smart French commanders who would have been a Hell of a lot more famous and respected had they had the benefits of US resources and determined men like Eisenhower and LBJ in their government.
Let me give you a few to look up, if you happen to be curious:
- Pierre Jeanpierre, Legion paratroop commander
- Marcel Bigeard, paratroop commander and unconventional warfare theorist
- Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, WWII and Indochina armored commander
I get all this because I had a friend I served with 'down South' who couldn't cope with civilian life after he got out. He eventually sold everything, partied for a week, and then flew to Marseilles and joined the Legion. When I last heard from him, right around the turn of the Millennium, he was a maraschal de logis chef [equivalent to a US Sergeant First Class] in his third hitch. Because of him, I got interested in French military history and 'tha Frogs' have the reputation they do.
A respected historian that I like a lot had a quote that really sums it up: 'Never has an honest soldier been as ill-treated by the government he serves as the French poilu.'

You are absolutely correct. French soldiers are great. The problem they had was political leadership.

 

[Condottiere]

The French tend to (re)fight their last war.

But, they are faster learners than the Russians.

 

[Galadrion]

You are absolutely correct. French soldiers are great. The problem they had was political leadership.

As Google pointed out more than a decade ago, the French only win when they are led by someone who is not a French man. Napoleon, Jean d'Arc, as two examples.

 

[sda5691]

And this is where we get to the rationalizations...
Understand, I'm making no judgemental pronouncements here. I'm only noting that 'what do we do about the Kafers' is a moral and ethical issue to must wrestled with.
I want to make another point that many of us are missing:
The people of 2300 have significantly different values than we do today. They are more environmentally aware, they're opinions are more unified, and, well, more French. The fulcrum of the world is no long Anglic speaking. For 200 years it's been French, with French conceits, attitudes, leadership and solutions. Some points to remember:
- There is a significant disconnect between the Twilight and 'now'; Much of the knowledge infrastructure was lost in the nuclear holocaust and nobody in 2300 even knows why the Twilight War was fought or who even started it. It is described as an almost 2-century gap in history;
- The people of 2300 understand on a visceral level that humanity almost killed itself and the Earth along with it. Between pollution, nuclear fallout and widespread CBW [chemical and biological warfare] zones, a significant part of the world was rendered uninhabitable and two centuries of cleanup efforts are still ongoing;
- The Kafer represent a vision out of nightmare for an intelligence descended from monkey troops in the Serengeti... The Kafer are vicious and implacable. They cannot be reasoned with, negotiated with, or placated. They must fought, tooth and nail, and the ugly truth is that they're better at it than we are.
- At the end of the Kafer War, ESA nations looked at the wreckage, counted the costs, buried their dead, and then realized that within 10 years [possibly sooner], humanity was going to have to do it all over again. And then 10 years after that, and 10 years after that in ad nauseum;
- And humans like permanent solution. It's wired into our problem solving processes. The idea of that they'd have to fight a life or death battle with the Kafer every half generation was unacceptable.
So what to do?

"Trilon's bean counters looked over the company's long-term military sales after Lutke neutered Gamma Serpenti. Realizing that, while sales of military hardware and vessels would plummet as a result of diminished contact with the Kaefer, the costs of obtaining the materials to manufacture them would also fall. As such, many employees were either let go or transferred to Kie-Yuma to continue terraforming and defensive efforts on that world.

"'We may have dumbed-down their home world, but we haven't pushed further into Kaefer space. Kie-Yuma, in accordance with The Trilon Principles, will provide a bulwark against any potential future invasion.'"

 

[ottarrus]

OK, where are we getting 'Lutke neutered the Kafer' from?
2320 has Lutke dropping deadfall ordinance on a Kafer colony that also had human prisoners on it, but it wasn't one of the major worlds in the GV Loop.
The paradrenaline inhibitor was developed by the Outward Visions Pentapod sect and delivered to the French. The decision to drop a bioweapon on both worlds of the Kafer home system was a joint decision by Emperor Ruffin and the ESA heads of state [probably just Germany, the UK, and France]. Even the Fleets didn't know about it until they got their orders [likely hand delivered by courier].
But when the Terran Reserve Fleet drops the bioweapon at GV, Lutke was off doing his 'Bull Halsey' thing laying waste to Triumphant Destiny's worlds.