0 HP and Beyond

In another thread, I mentioned how Conan (and d20 in general) doesn't model wounds like sprained muscles and broken bones very well. In Conan (and d20), you're either completely healthy with no type of penalty (at least 1 HP or more), or you're disabled and dying (disabled a 0 HP, dying from -1 to -9 HP).

Eleven years ago, I was in a jet ski accident where my back was cracked in 3 places. I got up (adrenaline) out of the water on my own and was walking around when the ambulance arrived. Within hours, I was bed bound, unable to walk, for a month (and slowly after that). It took me about 3 mos to heal completely, and about a year to be "good as new".

At no point was I "dying", but I was seriously injured. Incapaciated. There was a time where we were scared I might not walk again.

But, I do. And, everything is fine now. I'm good as new, with no lingering problems. I'm lucky.

But...

That type of thing can't be shown very well in Conan.

A mace comes down on a man's arm and breaks the arm.

An arrow pierces the muscle just as the shoulder meets the neck, making it hard for the character to turn his head.

A knife cuts the end of the heel, making it hard to walk.

These types of things are not modeled in the Conan d20 system...and maybe should be.

I'm not talking about a critical hit chart. Oh no. Those things are terrible for PCs. They're really only "fun" in a game if they're used against NPCs only.

No, what I'm talking about are different effects being placed on the character at 0 HP and beyond.

At 0 HP, does the character necessarily have to be dying? Can't it be just an incapacitating wound? Something like what I've suggested above?

Healing could take place accordingly. The Left For Dead wouldn't have to be used as much. Heck, PCs wouldn't DIE as often!!



How would we run something like this? I'm looking for ideas--input.

I'm thinking: Instead of 0 HP meaning that the character is dying, he makes a Fortitude Saving Throw at DC 10 + Dying HP.

For example...

0 HP = DC 10.

-2 HP = DC 12

-5 HP = DC 15

-9 HP = DC 19

If the character makes the save, then he's not dying. He's messed up. The GM should consider the wound based on the attack that put him there. The GM should also altar healing time and requirements based on what the wound is.

Thoughts on this?

Other ways to handle this type of thing?

(When reaching 0 HP, rolling on a chart, like a Critical Hit Chart, comes to mind. But, the chart would have to be written, and I think the GM can do just as good a job with his imagination based on the last hit the character took.)

What do you think?
 
For example...

Jace walks the shadowy twists and turns of the Maul. He's new to Arenjun, and the moon is high in the night sky.

Movement behind him catches his eye. He turns, swiftly, but too late to avoid the swing of another man, dressed in robes and cowl, swinging a knife wildly.

Combat ensues. It doesn't go well for Jace. His attacker's last blow knocks him to -3 HP. He goes down, and the thief cuts his coin purse from his belt and flees, leaving Jace face down in the street.

Jace makes a Fortitude Saving Roll at DC 13.

If he fails the save, Jace is dying, using the normal Conan d20 rules, lying there immobile as his life's blood spills into the Maul.

If he makes the save, the GM rules that the last knife blow cut into Jace's left hand. Thinking quickly, the GM has Jace roll 1d6.

1 = 1 finger cut off.
2 = 2 fingers cut off.
3 = 3 fingers cut off.
4 = thumb cut off.
5 = hand pierced through the palm.
6 = ligaments in wrist cut and hand will be unusuable after healed.





Is this harsh? Hey, the character is ALIVE. Not DYING or DEAD!

And, the GM can adjucate the encounter based on what happened. If the save is failed, then Jace is probably going to die unless someone comes along and stablizing him. He's dying.

If Jace makes the save, he has some pretty serious hand damage, but he's not immoble. And, he's not dying.

"As the thief disappears into the night, Jace picks himself up off the street and uses his cloak to tightly wrap his hand. Then, he staggers into the nearest inn...when..."

Of course, the GM is free to make up whatever damage he'd like on Jace. The attacker could have stabbed Jace several times deeply in the gut or plunged the knife so deep in his chest that his lung is punctured (but, I was trying to choose something that would be serious but not leathal).

Maybe Jace has his eye poked out?

Whatever.

The point is: The character is trading death for a serious, harsh wound.

If the GM likes, he can judge the "harshness" of the wound on the Fort Save. If the Save is 5+ over his target, then maybe the damage heals quickly. If the Save is barely successful, then the GM is more harsh with his choice of damage.
 
Hmm, you seem to want Conan to be more of a simulation type of game. If that's what your group expects then your system looks like it will provide it. I agree that the HP system as provided does not take broken arms, missing eyes and such into account, but try to keep in mind in none of Conan's adventures does he break an arm or lose an eye either. He gets a lot of cuts, bruises, and scrapes but that's it. So in that respect, the game is very much like the stories. Also keep in mind, a single bad encounter can severely and permanently debilitate one of the PCs.
 
flatscan said:
Hmm, you seem to want Conan to be more of a simulation type of game.

The entire d20 system is rooted in simulation. It sprang from simulation war games!!

I agree that the HP system as provided does not take broken arms, missing eyes and such into account, but try to keep in mind in none of Conan's adventures does he break an arm or lose an eye either. He gets a lot of cuts, bruises, and scrapes but that's it. So in that respect, the game is very much like the stories. Also keep in mind, a single bad encounter can severely and permanently debilitate one of the PCs.

What you suggest above comes from using things like a Critical Hit Chart. I'm not suggesting using that type of thing at all.

What I am saying is, "Let's sometimes trade character death for character-messed-up."

Understood...the stuff you say about the Conan stories. But, Conan obviously never dies either. I'm suggesting allowing the character to continue living with a broken bone, missing fingers, or a limp.

Obviously, the game isn't like the Conan stories if the PCs die. I'm offering an alternative to death.







GM: You've got two choices. You can kill your character here, because Jace is at -3 HP with no hope of being stabilized. Or, we can cut off a few of Jace's fingers and let him run into the inn for help.

PLAYER: Chop those fingers off!!
 
Supplement Four said:
The entire d20 system is rooted in simulation. It sprang from simulation war games!!

I'm referring to Simulationist (like GURPS) vs. Gamist (like d20). It's a semantic issue. Sue me.

What you suggest above comes from using things like a Critical Hit Chart. I'm not suggesting using that type of thing at all.

What I am saying is, "Let's sometimes trade character death for character-messed-up."

As for trading being messed up or death, the use of Fate Points would mean this issue won't come up often, unless of course one of your players has foolishly spent all his Fate Points and didn't reserve one for being Left for Dead. :wink:
 
flatscan said:
I'm referring to Simulationist (like GURPS) vs. Gamist (like d20).

One of the things that has drawn me to Conan is that it is more simulationst than gamist in standard d20.

Character levels are defined (see pg. 12 of 2E), where as character levels in standard d20 are scaled to the PC's level (and change as the PCs go up in level).

Armor reduces damage in Conan instead of making the target harder to hit in d20.

A character wearing a loin cloth can viably defend himself in Conan where as in d20, it'll be La Machine time.

Etc.

I'd say, in many areas, Conan is a much more "simulationist" type of game rather than a "gamist" game, when compared to standard d20.

And, in both games, combat is quite tactical in nature, which is simulationist (war game) of its own.



As for trading being messed up or death, the use of Fate Points would mean this issue won't come up often, unless of course one of your players has foolishly spent all his Fate Points and didn't reserve one for being Left for Dead. :wink:

Admittedly, I am still reading the rules (it's a big book). And, I sure don't want to have a group of maimed, one-eyed, hobbled, cripples running around Hyboria. That's not the intent here.

I did ask for alternative methods for doing what I propose.

Maybe it will be an alternative only when Fate Points are spent. That's something to think about.

Or, maybe it's the price that comes with using Fate Points.

Or...maybe I'm going about this wrong. It seems to me that attriubte damage might be a better way of implementing this. Hinder move? STR damage. Head damage? INT hit. Face scarred? CHR damage. etc.

Maybe this type of thing is only triggered with Massive Damage (20+ damage in a single blow). If the character lives through the Massive Damage, then he must also make the Fort save or be "messed up".

Or...maybe we should implement the Fort save when a critical hit occurs.

There are several ways of going about this.

Still thinking....
 
Or...maybe I'm going about this wrong. It seems to me that attriubte damage might be a better way of implementing this. Hinder move? STR damage. Head damage? INT hit. Face scarred? CHR damage. etc.

That is exactly what broken bones and mangled limbs is supposed to be represented with, STR DEX and CON damage depending on what bone/limb is damaged.
 
One thing that is being missed is that HP damage is not physical harm, nor is each successful hit one swing that causes one blow.

Rolling to hit encompasses an abstract collective of all the swings and jabs that a combatant makes in thier turn. Damage dished out isn't cuts and bruises, although it might be, but rather it's the wearing down of one's opponent in a myriad of ways, ultimately resulting in that opponent left "dying". However, because healing is pretty generous in Conan (assuming one survives being Left For Dead), HP are regained rather fast above zero.

I'd say, therefore, that gradual depletion of HP only results in an unconcious state in PCs or major NPCs, while MD can get you dead real fast. MD is meant to represent the lopping off of heads, so I can't see it being reduced to "messed up".

Besides taht, missing a finger is way less debilitating than a limp or a missing eye.

maybe, if you ant to do it just for flavor and fun, you can have players make a mark each time they take damage that equals or exceeds, well, whatever stat they want. (bear with me)

At the end of your session, they roll a number of dice on tables you create for Battle Scars pertaianing to each stat. As you say, CHA could simply be nasty scars on the face or hands, all the way to a missing nose or gouged eye. The more dice they roll, the higher a result they'll get, so the worse the permanent wound will be. This is where it behooves them to spread serious Scar damage around rather than putting a mark next to CHA every time they take more than 14pts of damage.

Does that make sense?

So I have a CHA of 14 and DEX of 17 and a STR of 15. If I take 27pts of damage, I can put a mark next toany of those stats for a potential Battle Scar. If I take 16pts more, I can only put a mark next to CHA. Each mark is a die (d6?) and I roll those and consult the table of Scars ascociated with the stat I marked.

Now, you'd have to be careful to be sure that CHA Scars truly were either very minor but noticeably visible mar to the appearance, and not stuff taht effects capability. Scars for DEX, STR and END might be more nasty, like the limps or loss of grip strength that prevents two-handed weapon use. WIS and INT Scars might be combat paranoia and skittishness or constant ringing in the ears or frequently mistaking friend from foe. Could get rough, but only if really detrimental Scars are in the high number range in your charts.
 
Sutek said:
One thing that is being missed is that HP damage is not physical harm, nor is each successful hit one swing that causes one blow.

That's not being missed at all. That's the reason I looked at doing this when a character dies rather than when he just takes damage.

maybe, if you ant to do it just for flavor and fun, you can have players make a mark each time they take damage that equals or exceeds, well, whatever stat they want. (bear with me)

At the end of your session, they roll a number of dice on tables you create for Battle Scars pertaianing to each stat.

You're suggesting a type of Critical Hit chart (with critical hits suggested as the hits accumulate). That's not something I was looking to do.

I think you've been skimming my posts above rather than reading them closely. :shock:
 
Some options stolen from other games:

Have the character become "fatigued" when he his HP are reduced to a number less than his Constitution Score (ignore this if full HP are less than Constitution and he is uninjured). Describe the "fatigue" as heavy bruising, fractures etc.
Source: Star Wars d20 RCR (Fatigued when take Wound damage)

Have the character suffer some form of penalty when at less than half HP, possibly Fatigue or something else.
Source: D&D 4e's Bloodied condition

Have the character become unconscious before 0 HP, but he is not at that point dying and does not need to be stabilised, e.g. Unconscious at one fifth HP (round down). This would mean some characters would be out of a fight before suffering the possibility of bleeding to death.
Source: Earthdawn's Unconsciousness Rating and Death Rating for damage

Have hits that do significant damage in one blow inflict a penalty (-1 to checks, attack rolls and defence perhaps). E.g. if a hit does damage equal to or greater than one fifth of total HP in one go. Each "Wound" could also affect how quickly characters heal perhaps.
Source: Earthdawn's Wound Threshold
 
Or...maybe I'm going about this wrong. It seems to me that attriubte damage might be a better way of implementing this. Hinder move? STR damage. Head damage? INT hit. Face scarred? CHR damage. etc.

Maybe this type of thing is only triggered with Massive Damage (20+ damage in a single blow). If the character lives through the Massive Damage, then he must also make the Fort save or be "messed up".

Or...maybe we should implement the Fort save when a critical hit occurs.

There are several ways of going about this.

This reminds me of a Runequest game where we were adventuring near Doraster. Runequest is a game that includes this kind of thing, and models it very well. I got my leg cut off.

I retired the character. In out of game terms, it was equivalent to a character death.

From a gaming point of view, ironically, permenant debilitating injury is much more serious than death. The PC won't see it that way, of course, but from the player point of view death means you start a new character who will be on reasonably level terms with the other PCs, whereas a crippled character means you are saddled with a character that can do less, contribute less, and won't go away.

As far as I'm concerned, Conan may be more simulationist, but its simulating heroic fiction, not reality. I would far rather go down in a battle than get crippled and spend the rest of the campaign as a second rate hanger on.
 
Supplement Four, I don't have much to add as I'm quite fond of the rules as they are. However, if you do come up with some houserule, remember that there are some abilities that affect your condition once you're below 0 hp (the Diehard feat and the barbarian class ability Unconquerable are the ones I can think of), so you should think about how those abilities will be affected. Just something to keep in mind.
 
kintire said:
As far as I'm concerned, Conan may be more simulationist, but its simulating heroic fiction, not reality. I would far rather go down in a battle than get crippled and spend the rest of the campaign as a second rate hanger on.

What I meant by simulationist is a game, such as GURPS that's goal is to simulate reality as completely as possible (with the addition of powers and such). Conan is not like this, Conan strives to do some simulation, but it's gamist elements outweigh the simulationist elements. Things like Attacks of Opportunity, 5' adjusts, and such are all gamist elements that have little correlation in the real world. In other words, you need a play board to play Conan (and if you're not using one and not using the standard rules then we're not playing the same game). Anyhow, don't know if any of that made any sense, but that's how I defined it.

Finally, I agree with Kintire. Conan is about heroic sword & sorcery, and it would probably be better to fall in combat rather than live a cripple. If you were going to introduce missing limbs and such, I think the best bet is to offer it to players who have spent all their Fate Points and have hit -10. That way it gives them a chance to keep their character around, but they have to pay a heavy price.
 
Part of the reason I went to a different system was that I didn't really care for just how abstract HP really are. I also didn't like that one of the "consequences" of combat relies on a character hitting exactly 0.

I'm using a non-linear wound system now in a FUDGE-based game, and, while it's much more brutal in some ways, the actual wounds are subjective and left to the GM.

I think one thing that might help capture the flavor of what you are looking for is not to try and quantify serious wounds with a number of DC rolls, and charts and graphs and tables. Just imagine the situation the character is in, who they are fighting, and what the character might be facing next. Say that this is the final encounter of a particular adventure. If they get dropped and are forced to burn a Fate Point to be "left for dead", have them also realize that they had to crawl to the nearest village with a fractured leg. It will heal up over time before the character is off to pursue adventure, but it makes the entire ordeal feel much more brutal and have more dramatic impact.

On the other hand, if the character is dropped and forced to be "left for dead", but he is still a ways from completing his quest, maybe instead he dragged himself to the nearest village holding his innards in place from a nasty gash across the stomach. That will heal up much quicker than a fractured leg, but it will create a dramatic moment for the player as he is unsure if he will even survive long enough to make it to the village to get stitched up.

I don't personally like critical wounds as a simulationist aspect so much as they are an immersive aspect of the game. For me, if the game is too "gamey" and has that sort of "let's go for it because we can just reboot/heal/resurrect" mentality, the players don't fear character death and that influences the choices they make. But if they are worried about losing an eye or a leg, or having to sit around and heal up, that also influences their choices. When there are true consequences for actions in a game, it seems that you are more likely to get truer decisions and actions from players. You don't want to make them afraid to leave their huts (well, I think some of you guys do :P :wink: ), but on the other hand, you don't want them thinking that every situation is a foregone conclusion either.

I think that having serious wounds in the game, at least as a possibility, encourages players to be just a tad more careful than they are in a world where their character never really suffers any real consequences.

I've experienced this a bit personally just recently (that you can read about in a different thread). In my D&D game, I have to be more careful about putting certain situations in the game. But in my CinEpic game, the players seem to be much more cautious in their actions because it's a grittier system. One of them has even told me that the non-linear wound system we are using is enough in and of itself to make him consider his choices more carefully.

I think it's pretty hard to instill that fear of consequences in a D20 game, but it seems like Conan was much better written to accommodate it, for sure. :)
 
Nice comments, all. I appreciate them all--even those that take the other view and offer constructive criticism, because I like to view the problem from all angles.

I still haven't made up my mind about this, and I won't until I get more comfortable with the Conan rules.

But, I will say that I am leaning to: Right now, the rules state that at 0 HP and beyond, the character is dying.

What does "dying" mean? What wound is so serious that the character is about to die?

I'm thinking of answering that question with this system.





When a character reaches 0 HP or worse, I'll state what wound the character has. Sometimes, this will be a disabiling wound, like a broken arm, that can heal, in time (and is obviously not a wound that would make the character die).

So, sometimes, "dying" will be taken out of the equation and replaced with "serious disabling wound".

Sometimes, the character won't heal, good-as-new, as he would with a broken arm. He'll be maimed or crippled in some way (lose and eye, walk with a limp, etc).

And, sometimes, 0 HP and beyond will mean that the character truly is dying, with a punctured lung, internal bleeding, cut throat, etc.

How am I going to adjucate what happens? Not sure yet. Need to read more Conan rules. This is just the type of thing I'm leaning to--defining what type of wound the character recieves when he is pushed below 0 HP.





I am looking for a good Critical Hit chart, preferrably one designed for use with 3E or 3.5E d20.

I'm thinking of taking a roll on this chart whenever the character is wounded past 0 HP to determine what happened to the character.

I've heard Role Masters has some good charts like this (never played RM, so I'm not sure).

Know of any good charts that might suit my needs?
 
I'm pretty pleased with the way SW handles this. You get explicitly detailed wounds only when you go beyond 0 hp. You make a save when you go unconscious. Depending on the results of the save, you either have no major wounds, have temporary wounds, or permanent wounds.

thelevitator said:
I think one thing that might help capture the flavor of what you are looking for is not to try and quantify serious wounds with a number of DC rolls, and charts and graphs and tables. Just imagine the situation the character is in, who they are fighting, and what the character might be facing next. Say that this is the final encounter of a particular adventure. If they get dropped and are forced to burn a Fate Point to be "left for dead", have them also realize that they had to crawl to the nearest village with a fractured leg. It will heal up over time before the character is off to pursue adventure, but it makes the entire ordeal feel much more brutal and have more dramatic impact.

I don't think this will satisfy S4, but for those gamist reading this thread who think S4 might have some good points, perhaps the compromise is simply those who are "left for dead" take a looooooong time to heal. Say 1d6+1 months. Leave the specifics of the wound, the flavor text, to the dm. This means that you will feel that wound for a long time, and not soon forget it. However, you won't be permanently disabled, and wish you were dead.
 
Supplement Four said:
Sutek said:
...maybe, if you ant to do it just for flavor and fun, you can have players make a mark each time they take damage that equals or exceeds, well, whatever stat they want. (bear with me)

At the end of your session, they roll a number of dice on tables you create for Battle Scars pertaianing to each stat.

You're suggesting a type of Critical Hit chart (with critical hits suggested as the hits accumulate). That's not something I was looking to do.

I think you've been skimming my posts above rather than reading them closely. :shock:

No, I've read them, and maybe you just skimmed mine and got "critical hit chart" out of it! :P

Seriously, I understand your dilema. HP doesn't last long enough to feel heroic, and it's more of a "morality guage", particularly when some schlub with a Bardiche breaks out a two-handed power attack for upwards to 40pts of damage.

There are a couple of keys to the way Conan D20 has been modified to utilize the standard 3.0 HP mechanic. Normally, there's no real upward limit, but in Conan characters only gain +3HP after 10th lvl. Also, the MD threshold is way lower (3.0 D&D is 50, and Conan is 20!) so it's a lot easier to deliver a single devestating blow, depleting all of a target's HP in one shot.

What you were indicating interest in was a system by which wounds could be accumulated and where "dying" could have a better context. If you don't like 0HP=dying, only have that state take effect on damage inflicted through Crits or MD. Otherwise, normal depletion of HP results in Unconciousness. It's essentially the same thing, but normal healing stays in effect and no FP expendature is necessary to recover. That's an easy solution.

Your story about your spinal damage and recovery is Massive Damage. It knocked you out of commission and spent a Fate Point (walking to safety and staying still until help arrived). It took you a long while to recover because you had to keep making those FORT saves. Now, spinal injury in an accident where you can get medical help is one thing. A spinal injury in Combat with blood-thirsty Picts is something altogether different; in that case they don't care one whit about you and leave you for dead.

The term "dying" is mechanical to initiate that stage of HP recovery. If you don't like where it starts, shift it to another point (only occurs after massive Damage or a Critical hit, or both). The term represents a state where recovery is tenuous, regardless of the actual Fluff reasons behind it (injured spine, bardiche to the head, etc.)

As far as my Scar system, it's anything but a Critical hit Chart. Critical hits in D20 are a randomized mechainc to take the "head shot" out of the player's control. Critical hits themselve don't intrensically deplete HP or AP differently than regular hits, so it's just a "reward" for rolling the right number completely randomly. A regular hit from a Sneak Attack can do more damage than a Crit sometimes, but it's another simulation of "a more deadly hit", when we know that one Sneak Roll isn't really even just one strike, but the collection of most effective nasty strikes perpetrated against a target that round. What I created with that Scar system was a way to lose a finger, gain an ugly scar accross the chest or something interesting but not necessarily debilitating based on actual damage accumulation.

So if you've read all of this, 0HP is simply a state to which you can provide any Fluff you want to explain the damage. It's yoru narative, so if the damage was taken from a fall, say that the PC is "dying" because he has two broken tibia and needs to crawl to a nearby villiage to recover. You may even find that suspending the recovery process is fun, and makes for an interesting character moment. In the same vien, don't think "in the box" so much about these states and labels. As GM you can arbitrarily sugggest that recovery from "dying" takes more time for one injury over another.

One decent new thing in 4e D&D is the Skill Challenge. This could be another solution, in which the PC must make a number of DC checks successfully before he makes a certain number of failed attempts. Say you decide that the recovery from a particular wound will require 7 sucessful checks before 4 failures. The exact system in 4e is irrelevant, because it works even if the values are arbitrary like that. In other words, Herbalism and Healing might need to be used many successive times to recover from a 0HP state, just because you as the GM feel the wounds should be difficult to recover from for the drama of the story.
 
Sutek said:
...only have that state take effect on damage inflicted through Crits or MD. Otherwise, normal depletion of HP results in Unconciousness. It's essentially the same thing, but normal healing stays in effect and no FP expendature is necessary to recover. That's an easy solution.

I think that's exceptional thinking (and the reason I started this thread...to either get me to think of something, or to mine somebody else's exceptional idea).

This is a good idea. I just may use this. With MD only (not Crits).



I'm not sure I'm crazy about the Fate Point system. I haven't read it in detail--only skimmed it--but, I've used this type of thing in Star Wars and Bond and other games. It works OK. If 0 HP = Unconscious, and MD = dead or messed up, then Fate Points really aren't needed.

But, with 0 HP = Unconscious, I don't want the PCs not feeling the risk, either. Running out of HP needs to be scary.

Maybe 0 HP = Unconscious or messed up.

Still thinking.
 
Supplement Four said:
I'm not sure I'm crazy about the Fate Point system. I haven't read it in detail--only skimmed it--but, I've used this type of thing in Star Wars and Bond and other games. It works OK. If 0 HP = Unconscious, and MD = dead or messed up, then Fate Points really aren't needed.

Fate Points for being Left for Dead would occur at -10 HP not 0 HP. There may be an exception for them being used against Massive Damage, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

Fate Points are awesome, I love using them in the game as do my players. Again, we're playing it as close to the rules as written with its heavy Howard influence and there are plenty of times you can argue that Conan used a Fate Point to affect that situation in the stories. :wink:

Also, the 2nd edition introduced the idea of player's predicting 3 events in the story, the PC would receive a Fate Point for each of those predicted events that came to pass. It works wonderfully as a quick gauge to see what your players want out of the game.
 
I don't like permanent wounds or wound penalties too much as they tend to hamper only players, as NPCs are generally just alive or dead. A wounded party will have a bad time on the next encounter, get some new wounds so it will get worse on the next and so on... As there's no magical healing in Conan it can quickly become hard to handle.

D20 is designed for characters with large amounts of Hps and doesn't use any kind of wound penalties. If you change this, I'm afraid the whole balance of the game would be affected. D20 is totally unrealistic and was designed that way, despite the heavy rules.
 
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