0 HP and Beyond

[Supplement Four]

Fate Points are awesome, I love using them in the game as do my players. Again, we're playing it as close to the rules as written with its heavy Howard influence and there are plenty of times you can argue that Conan used a Fate Point to affect that situation in the stories. :wink:

To be honest, it's not the Fate Points that I don't like (I'm in-the-middle about them). It's the silly way characters earn Fate Points. Don't like the Mongoose method at all (otherwise, I'm damn impressed with the rules...but the Fate Point gain system just blows...write down three things that might happen to your character--gimme a break.)

Also, the 2nd edition introduced the idea of player's predicting 3 events in the story, the PC would receive a Fate Point for each of those predicted events that came to pass. It works wonderfully as a quick gauge to see what your players want out of the game.

Yep. That's the part I think is rather poorly written.

If I use Fate Points, I will need a new method for characters to gain them.

I'd rather use a GM interpreted "heroic moment" as an award for an FP than I would the silly method Mongoose describes.





From what I've read, Fate Points aren't really all that powerful. They're hard to get (as they should be), and therefore aren't used a whole lot (PCs hang on to them in case their characters are killed).

And, even when used for the Left For Dead thingy, all it gives the PC is a long-shot chance to be stablized (DC 20 Fort Check).

It seems to me that Fate Points don't have a lot of influence on the game, and the game will be little changed if the Fate Point system is removed entirely.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't like permanent wounds or wound penalties too much as they tend to hamper only players, as NPCs are generally just alive or dead. A wounded party will have a bad time on the next encounter, get some new wounds so it will get worse on the next and so on... As there's no magical healing in Conan it can quickly become hard to handle.

Understood. But the NPCs just die when they reach 0 HP. A PC can still live, and with the implementation of my wound idea, it's more likely they'll live after getting down in the negative hit points.

Where as the official game might have a character die, I'm looking at maybe breaking the character's arm instead.

Not all wound effects will be permanent. Only some will. A broken arm can heal. Sometimes there will be permanent effects, and sometimes there won't.

Haven't decided yet how that will happen.

D20 is designed for characters with large amounts of Hps and doesn't use any kind of wound penalties. If you change this, I'm afraid the whole balance of the game would be affected. D20 is totally unrealistic and was designed that way, despite the heavy rules.

I'm not changing anything pre-HP 0. And, instead of dying, I'm giving the character an option to live with a wound effect (and some wound effects will be permanent, as I said above, and some won't).





For example, a PCs gets hit and knocked to -5 HP.

By the rules, he's dying. He's got about 30 seconds to live (losing 1 HP per round).

Something bad has just happened to him, right?

He has a 10% chance of becoming stable on his own. That's a 90% chance he'll still continue to die. The player rolls and fails.

Now, the PC is at -6 HP.

His comrade with +5 Heal comes to the character's aid. The PC can be stabilized with a DC 10 Heal Check (bonus figured into the DC). That's still a 50% chance the character will continue to die. The friend rolls and fails.

A few seconds pass, and our hero is still dying.

Then, it's at the -10 mark. The PC uses a Fate Point to be Left For Dead.

This allows his comrade to attempt a Heal again. DC 10. Still a 50% chance. Comrade fails. PC still dying.

The last ditch effort is for the PC to make a DC 20 Fortitude check. If he passes, the PC is stabilized. If he fails, that's all she wrote, folks! One PC goes tits up.

His Fort check is +3. That's still an 85% chance of continuing to die.

He fails...dead.



There are a lot of long-shot chances in that mix: 10% to stabilize on your own; Heal Check; Another Heal after Left For Dead; Last Ditch Fort Check.

Maybe one will hit.

Then again, many times, none do.



So, what i'm saying is that I can trade this character death for...a missing eye, some lopped off fingers, a broken wrist..etc...whatever the situation calls for.

 

[Sutek]

I think that one thing that isn't being made clear is that MD starts to come up more often than mere HP depletion pretty quickly. Because of Feat aquisition, PCs will get it faster, but once that starts happening, you, as GM, will start giving a couple of random street thugs in each group of them Power Attack or Sneak 3d6 and a Finesse weapon.

MD turns out to be a way nastier proposition for armor too, because if you read armor damage, the same 20 is needed to damage armor.

As far as Unconcious goes, don't worry - it's scary. You might as well be considered Dying, except that you are completely taken out of the game. No active recovery system. Just 1HP back per hour per level. The affected character is helpless for, well, the rules don't say how long. I usually say that Unconciousness lasts until NLHP exceed current HP - basically the inverse of what got you there. Take a lot of NLHP dmage, and you could be out for hours (or whenever I deem appropriate; there's awyas GM fiat). The problem with that system is that I found that Unconcious characters that take more HP damage regain conciousness faster. (DOH!) maybe they get a FORT save every CON minutes to move up to Staggered. You can work with it.

Another alternative is that MD can force a save, but the save depends of what sort of Stat damage you are trying to avoid. I think someone already suggested that, but it works because then you have a different healing track whihc simulates the serious injuries you're trying to simulate which functions autonomous of HP recovery, Non-lethal damage, etc.

 

[Krushnak]

To be honest, it's not the Fate Points that I don't like (I'm in-the-middle about them). It's the silly way characters earn Fate Points. Don't like the Mongoose method at all (otherwise, I'm damn impressed with the rules...but the Fate Point gain system just blows...write down three things that might happen to your character--gimme a break.)

The three things you write down are what might happen during an entire adventure, not one session so it's not that bad. It really does help to let you know what each of them wants/expects from the adventure.

 

[quigs]

I'm pretty pleased with the way SW handles this. You get explicitly detailed wounds only when you go beyond 0 hp. You make a save when you go unconscious. Depending on the results of the save, you either have no major wounds, have temporary wounds, or permanent wounds.

I love Savage Worlds for this very reason. No hit points!!!! I HATE hit points, no matter how they are used, I don't like em. Yes they are good for certain types of games, but for grim and gritty Conan games, I need something different.

 

[Sutek]

There's always hit points, even in systems that claim not to use hit points. (lol) Seriously, there's some kind of "level of physical harm" status thingy. Call it a "Not Quite Dead Yet" system.

However, with the low massive damage value in Conan, the actual total HPs of things become almost irrelevant. When all that's needed is 20points of damage above AP to auto kill someone...HP go out the window.

Why does a system with HP somehow equate to "not gritty" to some of you folks? I just don't see it.

 

[flatscan]

Why does a system with HP somehow equate to "not gritty" to some of you folks? I just don't see it.

I really don't know. Reading REH's stories, it really seems like Conan does have HP, way before the concept had even been thought of. :shock:

 

[rabindranath72]

Why does a system with HP somehow equate to "not gritty" to some of you folks? I just don't see it.

I guess many people do not have a clear understanding of what hit points really mean, and the fact that in many new games they are not explained that well. A good read of the AD&D 1e DMG to understand how Gary Gygax viewed them is in order, I guess. In fact, in the examples he shows, he clearly states what they mean, how they are used etc., and when they go to certain negative values, he even states that some permanent injuries might be in order.

 

[Supplement Four]

I guess many people do not have a clear understanding of what hit points really mean, and the fact that in many new games they are not explained that well.

I'd agree. Hit Points are an abstract concept, and as such, they're typically difficult to explain.

I will admit, though, that 2E Conan does a fine job explaining what they are. I was pleased when I read that nice, simple, concise description of them.

A good read of the AD&D 1e DMG to understand how Gary Gygax viewed them is in order, I guess. In fact, in the examples he shows, he clearly states what they mean, how they are used etc., and when they go to certain negative values, he even states that some permanent injuries might be in order.

Man, that's been ages. And, I sold my AD&D 1E DMG a long, long time ago.

Would you might listing some of Gygax's words? I'd love to re-read some of that stuff.

 

[Sutek]

(heh) As a matter of fact, I dug out my original AD&D PHB to look at how those rules were written, so I just happen to have Mister Gygax's words on HPs right here in front of me!

First paragraph starts: "Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This would be the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses.* It is rediculous to assume that even a fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.**

Think of this as suggesting that the last 5 HP or so of any character, regardless of level (at least by old AD&D standards) should really be considered his "life". Lose that, and you're dead. And, by the way, that was 0HP. No negatives, folks. That was more "softening" of the rules to keep PCs alive so players wouldn't get all bent out of shape when they took a load of damage in one shot. It's key to note that it's supposed to be a reflection of skill, luck and esoteric "supernatualness" (influence of the gods, perhaps?) that hit points ultimately are truly representative of. Not physical harm.

* Another thing to learn from old AD&D: Horses were bloody TOUGH!
** Definitely "forces" and not "items" or "powers". This speaks to HP as being conjoined to the heroic detinies of the PCs in Gygax's take on things, as well as his intent of how the PCs fit into the cosmology of the world. HP are an intrinsically "otherworldly" protective buffer, especially at higher levels.

 

[thelevitator]

What always frustrated me as a GM is that HP are so abstract. When I was younger, I tried to play it much like it's explained in the last post.

GM: "The little thief slashes straight at your heart, but your years of experience kick in and you twist out of the way at the last moment. Take 7 HP Damage."

Player: "What? You said he missed me! Why do I have to lose HP?"

GM: "Well, HP are an abstract concept meant to represent not only physical damage, but luck, physical strain, and other factors that eventually lead to character death if they aren't careful."

Player: "Yeah, but he missed me."

GM: "....."

Having HP represent 50 different things does make it a lot harder on many GM's (like me) to describe combat. And I never had players be "cool" with losing HP and not getting hit. HP may not have been originally intended to mean physical damage, but it sure seems to me that is what they have become.

I also get frustrated sometimes having to come up with new ways to describe HP damage. I despise using numbers in my descriptions, but it becomes hard to come up with creative descriptions of 3 HP attacks against 100 HP characters.

The new system I've been working on uses a non-linear wound system. Even if it doesn't make sense to any other GM's, I find it much easier to use, less "mathy", and easier to create descriptions.

I personally think HP are a fine way to track what happens in combat. I've just always struggled with being able to use them in their original context with players and not have them get upset when they lose HP when they weren't "hit", no matter how much you try to explain that HP aren't just damage.

 

[Sutek]

I'd ask a player like that to stand a moment, and hold a stack of books for me. I'd then sit, and continue the game, basically letting the player stand there holding books for a while. Eiether that or have him jump in place for a few dozen seconds. I'd then ask him if he's bleeding. When I get the incredulous look, I'd then suggest "Of course not, you didn't take that many hit points of damage."

A simple explanation is "That's why they're called 'hit points' and not 'wounds.' That's not what they are."

If you're having a hard time with players getting HP, then you have a person who is going to over anylise everything, though.

 

[Supplement Four]

First paragraph starts: "Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This would be the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses.* It is rediculous to assume that even a fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.**

Man! That brings back memories! I remember reading those words, what, 20+ years ago!

I think Conan 2E does a good job of explaining hit points (one of the best explanations I've seen).

----------------------------

Hit points represent inherent resistance to injury and, in the case of living beings, the ability to avoid critical damage through exertion and skill. Hit points are an abstract concept and do not always reflect the true physical condition of a creature. Instead, a being's hit point total is a sum measurment of health, fatigue and combat awareness. When a character's hit point total reaches zero, he is disabled. When hit points reach -1, he is dying. When the value gets to -10, the character is dead.

 

[Sutek]

I didn't like their use of the word "damage" in explaning how characters take damage. First rule of debate: you can't use the word you're trying to explain. It's compounded by the use of the word "critial" which is also use to describe a kind of damage. There's just something better in my head about putting it down to luck and the unseen powers gods and the universe in general that appeals to me more, and I think provides a better explanation.

To each his own.

 

[quigs]

Well savage worlds uses wounds, yes, but you only get 3, period. And every time you take a wound it is an actual cut or bruise or stab, not a narrow miss, those are accounted for in hits that fail to wound. Each wound you have imposes a -1 penalty on all your checks, so you "feel" your wounds.

In d20, I just don't like how you can fight as 1 hp just as well as if you had 60, and then all of a sudden, you fall unconscious at -1 from being at full tilt before hand. And some could argue that losing hit points shows up as physical fatigue, exhaustion, etc. but then I ask why do we have fatigue and exhaustion conditions as well? Hmmmmm.

But yes, to each their own.

 

[rabindranath72]

And, by the way, that was 0HP. No negatives, folks. That was more "softening" of the rules to keep PCs alive so players wouldn't get all bent out of shape when they took a load of damage in one shot. It's key to note that it's supposed to be a reflection of skill, luck and esoteric "supernatualness" (influence of the gods, perhaps?) that hit points ultimately are truly representative of. Not physical harm.

The 1e DMG describes also negative hit points (max -10) and how they can have permanent effects like scarring, mutilations etc.
Another point is the interpretation of the AC concept. As Gygax explains, it is NOT avoidance of hits, but avoidance of damage. This makes a HUGE difference. That's why I think, in the context of abstractness of hit points, that damage reduction is really not necessary and only complicates matters needlessly. In fact, in my games I have completely ditched the idea of damage reduction of armor (and armor piercing etc.) It makes for a waaay faster game, and it fits the whole idea of abstract combat.

 

[rabindranath72]

And some could argue that losing hit points shows up as physical fatigue, exhaustion, etc. but then I ask why do we have fatigue and exhaustion conditions as well? Hmmmmm.

But yes, to each their own.

I guess this is a problem of an incorrect interpretation of the AC and hit points concept. These are completely abstract, and when you add things to make them more "factual", paradoxes are bound to happen. It is a problem of how d20 (and d20 Conan) have tried to "reinterpret" an abstract concept, not a problem with the original HP and AC mechanics in themselves.
So, when you are reduced to 1 hit point, you are fatigued, you are out of luck, you have lost pull etc. and are relying only on your physical resilience; that's why NOW a sword stroke can kill you outright.

 

[Sutek]

Bingo!

 

[Supplement Four]

It is a problem of how d20 (and d20 Conan) have tried to "reinterpret" an abstract concept, not a problem with the original HP and AC mechanics in themselves.

I don't see how d20 Conan has reinterpreted.

The max hit points you get at first level in 2E (I don't think AE does max hp at 1st level) is, basically, your "life points". Everything else is like Gygax said above. At negative hp, you're dying.

I read them the exact same, not different.

 

[Hervé]

Why not use something similar to the WHFRP critical wound system?
In Warhammer, evrything's fine until you reach negative Hps. From there every hit is a critical blow, each getting meaner and deadlier as you go down in negative...