New Setting for Legend: Sheoloth - The Sprawling City

Hey Wolf, I wasn't trying to insult you man. That's a seriously impressive list of credentials and I just think its a shame that someone wiyh a body of work like that isnt being used more effectively by the publisher. Seruiously, its a shame that its conversion work you've been confined to. I hope that changes.

Yeah, I get that publishing is a risk and its easier to resell something you sold before with a new lable. But what I really want to see is that risk being taken so we have a game line thats interesting and its own thing - not a sort of d20 or PF parrallell.

Anyhow its just my frustration coming through when I get passionate and into a new game. I like to buy into it wholesale but only when there's stuff that is neat and original. Sorry if I derailed the thread any.
 
It seems to me that the Legend community is rather fractured, with a large following favouring S&S and another group preferring Historical/pseudo-Historical stuff. There does seem to be a fair fantasy contingent among the Legend gamers so I am going to speak from that camp.

I would love to see adventures set in a generic setting or sandbox, like Book of Quests and Monster Island. I would also love to see a book on generic fantasy Cults, Factions and Guilds, that I feel would be invaluable to GMs.
 
warlock1971 said:
I would love to see adventures set in a generic setting or sandbox, like Book of Quests and Monster Island. I would also love to see a book on generic fantasy Cults, Factions and Guilds, that I feel would be invaluable to GMs.

I'm not sure that makes sense since it's already there - someone with Legend can pick up those publications now, plus all the $1 legacy stuff from Design Mechanism all of which works with little or no conversion to Legend.

You can't ignore the fact that Legend exists in a group of rules, settings, scenarios and campaigns which include the old MRQII, all the MRQI publications, OpenQuest, RQ6 and its supplements, the Moon Design RQ2 classic re-publications, the new Magic World and presumably forthcoming supplements from Chaosium, the Cakebread & Walton Renaissance/Clockwork and Chivalry settings, and of course all the Basic Roleplaying materials. So...there's a lot of existing and mostly pretty cheap publications already out there for someone who is new to the system.

Mongoose's conversion strategy to push into "Runes in the Dungeon" territory doesn't seem to be a bad one if the audience is coming from d20 especially if no other publisher is going in that direction.
 
Prime_Evil said:
So what kind of Legend books would you like to see? Let's talk about your wish list for the New Year :)

I got no problem with books like Sheloboth - city books and settings focused on a race - but I'd like to see some other races done. Minotaurs for instance, or something that doesnt get much attention. I got the RQ book Monster Island and that does a great job with lizard men and serpent men, giving them a whole new twist.

I don't like splat books so much so Legend: Elementalists doesnt appeal. Settings that can be used as sandbox are great coz they save me time and are a good source of ideas. Adventures too. To me its about original content and new content.
 
Umm, not be devil's advocate here but wasn't the word "drow" supposed to be removed from this conversion altogether? The chapter on magic is listed as "drow magic" in both the table of contents and the chapter itself.

Sorry just got my copy today and I was like "wasn't that supposed to be 'dark elf'?"
 
In my *.doc files, both the table of contents and the chapter are listed as dark elf magic, not drow. I'm not sure what went on there unless the ToC was re-written.

Good catch though, passed this onto Matt.
 
Has there been a decision on whether this will see print? I hope so because I would like to buy it but don't buy PDF's.
 
So I read your post on page two saying that you (The Wolf) don't get paid at all for Print editions sold, only PDFs....and my flab was ghasted. What's that all about!?????


Okay. So I am coming at Legend having NEVER EVER seen, heard of, read, played any of the D20 material that has thus far been converted.

It's only since GMing Legend that I've gotten any of that stuff. Havn't read any of the Gloranthian bundle I bought cheap off DriveThru a while back (browsed for cults and stuff but that's it). Bought The Spider God's Bride I/II/II in pdf format.

Gained Samurai of Legend and Gladiators of Legend for Christmas just to further my collection. Never played either style of game.

Now I'm saying all of that because other people have talked about preferring S&S over High Fantasy; wanting new material instead of rehashed and converted stuff; etc.

Well I'm totally new to all of this source material, including (as I just said) stuff like Gladiators and Samurai. I also have Historia Rodentia. Well to be quite honest - THEY SCARE ME. They scare me because I don't have a frickin' clue where to start with GMing any of them!!!

When I got started with Legend I created my own setting, which is awesome and i will be revisiting it again at some point, but actually I'd like to cut my teeth on some SMALL adventures for any and all of the above games.

Historia Rodentia is just jaw-droppingly-complex in regards information and details to try to know before even being able to run a game; Samurai has a nice little adventure I hope to try at some point; The Blood Path shall come to the table at some point too, possibly quite soon.

So I'm trying to get across the point that not everyone has read all of this stuff before, and while it's exciting it's also bloody scary, and we need small adventures that people unsure of the setting can run.


I hope that helps somewhat.
 
Heya Sam, it is Sam right? Yeah. I am in agreement with you, but don't worry re: not paid for print, I have a very good deal with Mongoose to produce pdf based material so I'm not complaining, as long as people buy pdfs that is heh.

I may be looking at something simple for Legend, don't know if Matt would consider it but I am tempted to look at building a very small setting from the ground up for Legend that's not as big and as deep/scary to beging with as Xoth.

It would likely be very similar in style to my Blackrock supplement I produced with my wife Gill, only it would have low ranked Legend NPCs and adventure hooks, perhaps with a very simple Legend adventure to build on that.

What it would do is build a kingdom/setting up with places to explore over time, so you can get that feel of the old - small town HQ that leads into a deeper region.

As for Sheolth, think of the Legend Sheoloth as a Director's Cut, only the Director has changed and it's me. I have given the Sprawling City the same attention to detail as I did with the re-write of the Spider's God Bride book 1 and I've put my mark on the original design, so you'll find there's quite a few changes in the Dark Mother for example...she's not the same as in the d20 version.

Who doesn't love an elder goddess that appears in the form of a Shadow Dragon now? I know I do.
 
The Wolf said:
Heya Sam, it is Sam right? Yeah. I am in agreement with you, but don't worry re: not paid for print, I have a very good deal with Mongoose to produce pdf based material so I'm not complaining, as long as people buy pdfs that is heh.

I suspect that this is an unfortunate side-effect of a shrinking market for RPGs and a change in the way that gamers consume new material - I've got to admit that I buy far more gaming stuff in PDF format these days than I purchase in dead tree format. Portable devices make it possible to carry around an entire library of rulebooks and other resources. Plus I've got so many books that I have to think carefully about each new physical purchase - the rule for my gaming library these days is "one book enters, one book leaves". It's the only way to maintain my sanity...and my marriage :)

The Wolf said:
I may be looking at something simple for Legend, don't know if Matt would consider it but I am tempted to look at building a very small setting from the ground up for Legend that's not as big and as deep/scary to beging with as Xoth.

I suspect there's a market for a fairly generic small-scale sandbox with multiple potential adventure settings within a wilderness context. The obvious models would be old school D&D modules such as "Keep on the Borderlands" or "Village of Hommlet", as well as early Runequest scenarios such as Apple Lane.

The Wolf said:
It would likely be very similar in style to my Blackrock supplement I produced with my wife Gill, only it would have low ranked Legend NPCs and adventure hooks, perhaps with a very simple Legend adventure to build on that.

I recently picked up Blackrock and liked it :)

The Wolf said:
What it would do is build a kingdom/setting up with places to explore over time, so you can get that feel of the old - small town HQ that leads into a deeper region.

Having a clear plot is anathema to this kind of product - it might be better to offer players a range of potential adventure sites and plot hooks and let them choose the ones that interest them. The Traveller approach of having a few patron encounters can also work, so long as you don't railroad characters into a specific course of action.
 
Prime_Evil said:
I suspect that this is an unfortunate side-effect of a shrinking market for RPGs and a change in the way that gamers consume new material - I've got to admit that I buy far more gaming stuff in PDF format these days than I purchase in dead tree format.

It is a side effect of the market - sales of Mongoose ebooks overtook paper sales more than two years ago - but not necessarily an unfortunate one, at least for writers.

Without going into the gory details, we discussed this at length with darren (and a few other select writers), and it basically breaks down like this; in the 'old days' a writer delivered a manuscript and was paid a lump sum (variable, but think low four figures for an average RPG book).

Now, unless you are going to knock the ball out of the park with print sales every time (and you won't, even the likes of WotC saw that disappear), you have to be very careful what you print, and that means many of the books we have done recently may never have been done at all as we would have been forced to concentrate on the 'hot' titles.

So, we proposed that instead of a lump sum, said writers would receive a percentage of revenue all electronic sales. We made sure this percentage was very high (much higher than we could ever do on printed books, and much, much higher than we would pay, say, Warner Brothers for the rights to Babylon 5, so we are not talking about a small number here), so the writer gets a healthy bump right at the start, when all the core fans of the game pick up the PDF but, importantly, the writer continues earning on _every_ copy sold for _years_ to come.

To demonstrate, every month, we still sell PDFs of the original D20 Slayer's Guides we published in 2001, nearly thirteen years ago. Thirteen years from now, in 2027 (assuming the zombies do not take over by then), Darren will _still_ be earning from Sheoloth and, in total, will have received far more than we could possibly have paid him with one lump sum.

But, that is only half the trick...

Darren has not done just Sheoloth, he has worked on several Legend books and continues to do more. While sales of Sheoloth, or any other book, in 5 years time may not be huge (it might be just a handful of copies a month), he will by then, hopefully, have many titles all earning him royalties on a regular basis - perhaps enough to provide him with a decent monthly wage from those royalties _alone_.

That is why I keep riding Darren to do more books - in a way, it is for his own good :)

The market has changed things, and what writers miss out on now is the 'big hit,' the lump sum. However, by taking advantage of the changing technology, we can a) take a risk on producing material that might otherwise not see the light of day (and we have some pretty far out things in the works for Traveller right now!) and b) provide the humble RPG writer the chance to earn a decent monthly wage.

It makes things a bit harder to begin with (and so, perversely, is going to be tougher on existing veteran writers than those really just breaking into the field - like Darren) but it looks like it will also make things a lot more stable in the long run for both writer and publisher. And continuing to earn from a project years after it has been written is something almost unheard of in this industry!

So, on the whole, while I like physical books as much as the next man, I am embracing these changes in the market and looking at the positive side. I think it will make things better for everyone.
 
The Wolf said:
Heya Sam, it is Sam right? Yeah. I am in agreement with you, but don't worry re: not paid for print, I have a very good deal with Mongoose to produce pdf based material so I'm not complaining, as long as people buy pdfs that is heh.

Yes it is Sam :) or just Bifford :)

Yes, Matthew's reply about this was very enlightening so I'm happy to know that you will be in a good situation with money rolling in for years to come :)

The Wolf said:
I may be looking at something simple for Legend, don't know if Matt would consider it but I am tempted to look at building a very small setting from the ground up for Legend that's not as big and as deep/scary to begin with as Xoth.

It would likely be very similar in style to my Blackrock supplement I produced with my wife Gill, only it would have low ranked Legend NPCs and adventure hooks, perhaps with a very simple Legend adventure to build on that.

What it would do is build a kingdom/setting up with places to explore over time, so you can get that feel of the old - small town HQ that leads into a deeper region.

Colour me interested. I mean, I have my own setting I can expand on as well of course, but having as much extra stuff to work from as possible is a big help.

The Wolf said:
As for Sheolth, think of the Legend Sheoloth as a Director's Cut, only the Director has changed and it's me. I have given the Sprawling City the same attention to detail as I did with the re-write of the Spider's God Bride book 1 and I've put my mark on the original design, so you'll find there's quite a few changes in the Dark Mother for example...she's not the same as in the d20 version.

Who doesn't love an elder goddess that appears in the form of a Shadow Dragon now? I know I do.

Oh yes, gotta love Deep Old Ones and Elder God/esses and the like :D
My LARP/RPG character currently has Nyarlathotep's flute which is driving him MAD with rage. mawhawhaw :D

I will most likely buy the PDF of Sheoloth, probably early next week once I'm paid for this week. The preview on DriveThru makes it look totally different to the D20 version I downloaded yesterday!

All the best,

Sam / Bifford
 
msprange said:
Without going into the gory details... {Snip} ....we proposed that instead of a lump sum, said writers would receive a percentage of revenue all electronic sales. We made sure this percentage was very high (much higher than we could ever do on printed books, and much, much higher than we would pay, say, Warner Brothers for the rights to Babylon 5, so we are not talking about a small number here), so the writer gets a healthy bump right at the start, when all the core fans of the game pick up the PDF but, importantly, the writer continues earning on _every_ copy sold for _years_ to come.

... {snip} ...

Darren has not done just Sheoloth, he has worked on several Legend books and continues to do more. While sales of Sheoloth, or any other book, in 5 years time may not be huge (it might be just a handful of copies a month), he will by then, hopefully, have many titles all earning him royalties on a regular basis - perhaps enough to provide him with a decent monthly wage from those royalties _alone_.

... {snip} ...

It makes things a bit harder to begin with (and so, perversely, is going to be tougher on existing veteran writers than those really just breaking into the field - like Darren) but it looks like it will also make things a lot more stable in the long run for both writer and publisher. And continuing to earn from a project years after it has been written is something almost unheard of in this industry!

So, on the whole, while I like physical books as much as the next man, I am embracing these changes in the market and looking at the positive side. I think it will make things better for everyone.

(I've snipped that down to the really important bits so I'm not block quoting the whole post)

Absolutely brilliant explanation of things Matthew, thank you!

I feel a lot better now about purchasing the pdfs knowing this info. I will still buy your books when I can though as I do prefer to handle those!

For Christmas I received two of the "...of Legend" books (Samurai and Gladiators) and was going to ask for the free copies you said you'd send to anyone owning the books...but now I'm not sure if I want them free LOL Part of me wants to buy them! :)

If Mongoose need a proofreader any time I am available and as you know I am local(ish) being in Melksham as I am. :D

Thanks again for the awesome explanation.

Sam / Bifford
 
Thanks Prime_Evil for grabbing Blackrock, and thanks for the comments.

Cheers Bifford, it's very much appreciated.

Matt, superbly put and yeah - you don't have to worry too much on riding me to do more Legend books. I'm really enjoying the work I'm doing on the line and I hope there's another Spider God's Bride book in the pipeline.

So far I've worked on:

Samurai of Legend
Gladiators of Legend
Monsters of Legend 2
Spider God's Bride
Song of the Beast Gods
Citadel
Sheoloth

I'm not far off finishing up Cults of Sheoloth: the Dark Mother. It's taking a bit longer since I've been looking at making the cult quite unique and the book fairly indepth in terms of information you can use to create all sorts of interesting complications for players as a GM, as well as enough info for anyone to play a follower.

I have spells left to do, equipment and then the detailed info on the NPCs. It was decided that we wanted to at least stat up some of the NPCs in the book and some other things rather than leaving it as vague as Sheoloth was.

Darren
 
Thanks for the informative update, Matt. I really appreciate your openness. I think it's great that you have introduced this approach as it encourages sucessful authors to build up a back catalogue that provides ongoing royalties. Obviously the industry is changing and companies that don't adapt may not survive. Im glad to see that Mongoose is at least trying out some new approaches - they may or may not work out in the long run, but it's better than letting the RPG lines fade away because the old distribution channels are drying up. The fact that PDFs can keep selling in modest numbers long after they are released solves the old issue that RPG products that don't sell in the first two months simply sit on the shelves forever - discouraging retailers from taking risks...

I love physical books as much as the next gamer, but the convenience of tablets at the game table has definitely changed the way that many groups approach the game table. I remember the d20 days where a game session meant carrying two bags stuffed with rulebooks. And the ability to search the entire text of a rulebook instantly is a game changer (literally!). I've also been glad to see that Mongoose is putting some effort into making their PDFs more useful on portable devides (bookmarks, scalable graphics, better layout, etc).
 
One thing I do like about e-book releases, it's very easy to fix errata without having to cut/paste things into a physical book. I love print though, but I am warming to pdf.
 
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