WOTC is angry!

[Malcadon]

They did more then suspend and removed all 3.X and 4e files, they removed files from ALL EDITIONS!

Old-school fans, like myself, are fuming over this. Many of us got insulted with how they would mock every aspect of the classic games to promote their 4e game, and they would expect us to pay through the nose ($9 each) for games they no longer support. So many of us took to piracy, which was awesome because of all the overlooked and hard-to-find files. Unfortunately, there was no shortage of folks who exchange files that was still published and supported by their respective owners - which I disagree with it, because they need the eat, but it also becomes a necessary evil with the expense of rulebooks, and the general lack of game stores to sample them at (nowadays all I see are 4e books at the big books store chains).

Well, Wizbros took action, but rather heavy-handedly. They suspend all TSR/WotC files on RPGNow.com & DriveThruRPG.com, and they removed all the pirated files from file share sites, like Scribd. If they made the older books available for free, or at least dirt-cheap ($2.50 or less), they would not be was hated and alienated by the old-school community as they are now! I lost interest with WotC years ago, and moved on - unfortunately the attack on the old-school pirate community as made things personal! :evil:

 

[Apple]

4E is selling EXTREMELY well.

My guess as to why they stopped letting 3rd party companies sell their PDFs is because they don't want to split the money with them anymore and will sell them all themselves. The same reason they took the Dungeon/Dragon from Paizo and are selling them as PDFs online now and raking in the money by turning all the paying subscribers into beta testers. Worked for Blizzard.

 

[Sutek]

Show us evidence that it's selling well, because I don't think it is.

The theory that WOTC is pulling 3rd party 3.X PDF sales because they don't want to split sales with those 3rd parties suggests that they are wanting to "circle the wagons". In other words, they want to regain control of the official 3.X D&D content so that they can sell becuse they aren't selling 4th well enough.

The reason they had Paizo doing the mags as PDFs was to have a 3rd party set up the process and then dump them, thining that it would kill Paizo in the process, eliminating an OGL competitor int he process. Trouble is, Paizo developed Pathfinder, which is basically D&D 3.6, and has started selling supplements like mad. Publishers of other 3.X product are doing so well, Mongoose included, that it's competing with 4th, and WORC is scrounging for every way they can find to corner the market again, or at least dominate it.

The problem WOTC keep overlooking is that people aren't buying 3rd party 3.X stuff simply because it's 3rd party 3.X stuff. People are buying it because they don't like 4th.

If WOTC would release sales numbers, I'd almost guarantee that they are severly in the red after PHB2 sales. I bet you that number are getting so bad that they are jsut trying to reign in any sales figures they can to keep 4rg afloat, but desguising it as "loyalty to fans of previous editions." If that were really the case, they would ahve roduced 4th without dropping support for 3.5. They really though 4rg was the RPG killer, and sales aren't supporting that hypothesis - people still want 3.X product, and WOTC is going to try to capitalize on that while failing to understand that it means 4th is not the public favorite they wanted it to be.

 

[Apple]

If WOTC would release sales numbers, I'd almost guarantee that they are severly in the red after PHB2 sales.

http://www.thecoremechanic.com/2009/04/players-handbook-2-on-wsj-top-15-best.html

They are selling out and going into 2nd printings on their books. They're doubtless selling dozens if not hundreds of copies of PHB2 for every Conan core book sold.

Just because it's a pile of crap doesn't mean people won't buy it.

 

[Dark Mistress]

While i think 4e is selling well. Saying they are on the 2nd printing run means nothing with out numbers. What was the first print run 5k? 10k? 50k? ect With out knowing the size of the print run saying it is in the second printing doesn't say much.

 

[cbrunish]

Personally I'm fed up with WOTC. It seemed that ever since TSR became corporate and Gygax was booted they went down hill. Although I had some hope from my experience with 3.5 edition (which was good).

They just seem to pump out books for sale and expect that people will buy it. If they wanted to make money then they should have reprinted and updated all the modules from 1st edition and the original D&D. Those were good modules. I would love to have played S4 Lost Caverns again in 3rd edition. Or imagine your first adventure being B2 Keep on the Borderlands (the original, not the one for the silver edition). Those were the days.

Or my personal favorite, I3 Pharaoh (loved that series!!!!!!!)

 

[Strom]

Here's a local D&D 4.0 is selling experience:

My friendly local comic book shop retailer - and friend - is selling the hell out of D&D 4.0 - at least that is what he told me when I asked him. He had the floor display out when the first 3 books came out (not sure how many books total the display holds but quite a few). That display has rotated the new releases as they have come out and there has always been space - meaning he his selling the books at a good pace.

His store is centrally located between two universities and that is where most of his D&D customers are coming from.

He is happy with the new upgrade and his sales - he told me that. Maybe his experience is unique - maybe not - I don't know.

 

[Clovenhoof]

This is just in from DriveThruRPG:

WOTC DOWNLOAD RECOVERY DAY, APRIL 15TH

By now, you have probably learned that Wizards of the Coast recently decided to cease the sale of digital download versions of their books. This means that RPGNow and DriveThruRPG will no longer be able to offer you future downloads of Wizards titles you have purchased.

We are offering you a final 24-hour period in which to re-download copies of any Wizards of the Coast files you have purchased from us in the past. If there are any titles you purchased, and you need a new copy of the file for your personal archive, this is your last chance to get it.

This 24-hour period will begin at 10:00 AM EST (U.S.A. Eastern Time Zone), Wednesday, April 15th and will conclude at 10:00 AM EST on Tuesday, April 16th.

During this time you may visit DriveThruRPG or RPGNow, log in, and click the My Account link found in the upper right corner of the site. Or just visit one of these links:
DriveThruRPG http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/account.php
RPGNow http://www.rpgnow.com/account.php

For the “My Account” page you will find your order history and download links, including a handy option to view all products updated since your last download of that title (for example a file that was updated with errata since you last downloaded it). During your visit, we certainly invite you to take a look around and see all the titles we have to offer for rpg PDF fans.

As always, thank you for your continuing support of all that we do, and we welcome your feedback and any questions you may have.

Sincerely,(...)

 

[DimitriX]

I keep reading about how 4e is selling like gangbusters and they're in their second printing and you can't find books anywhere. But, really, I'm not seeing the evidence.

My FLGS, probably the biggest and most well known in my city, has at least a dozen each of the DMG and MM left over from the release almost a year ago. They still have about a dozen of the PHB2. The only thing they have sold out of is the PHB1. When they run the Living Forgotten Realms events, I only see the same group of 6-7 people there.

Granted, 4e is still the most popular rpg around, but I still see people reading through the 3.X books that are still sitting on the shelves. And when the store had a sale recently, all those books went fast.

I was excited about 4e and I was lucky to play in the DnD Experience and be one of the first folks to try it out. I came home and taught my gaming group the rules and we switched to 4e before it was even released using some of the homebrew rule sets that people were creating from the preview materials.

But, 4e as presented by WotC is boring as Hell. They have really only focused on the kill the monster, get the xp, get the treasure, rinse, and repeat. They are trying to go for the lowest common denominator of gaming by appealing to people who really prefer MMORPGs and have never really played an rpg before. But, they are alienating their player base through their rules and, more recently, their corporate policies, and not really attracting that many new players.

For WotC to really grow, they have to create new gaming groups. That means new DMs because DMs are the ones that need source books and adventures to get going. Players just need the PHB1 and (maybe) PHB2. But, looking at all of the DMGs sitting on the shelf with price tags from 06/08, then I don't think things are going as well as they would like us to believe.

Now, I just wish I could get my gaming group off of 4e and onto Conan!

 

[flatscan]

I keep reading about how 4e is selling like gangbusters and they're in their second printing and you can't find books anywhere. But, really, I'm not seeing the evidence.

WotC is on their second printing of PHB2. PHB1 is currently on its 4th printing according to Greg Leeds, CEO of WotC. Now I don't know how many books are printed in one go, but considering that the PHB 1 can be found at Barnes & Noble and Borders along with FLGS, I'd imagine it's a substantial number. And any game book that breaks into the Wall Street Journal's 10 bestsellers list is no slouch in sales either. I'm not sure many (if any) other game companies can make the same boast.

We have done three reprints of the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook, and Player’s Handbook 2 has just gone back to press for a second printing. PH2 debuted at #4 on the Wall Street Journal’s best-sellers list, and #28 on USA Today’s list. By any measure, 4th Edition has been a great success and will continue to attract new players.

 

[Sting52jb]

I've stayed out of this for quiet a while now but i figured i'd voice my opinion now. I've been a DM/GM for nearly 10 years now and gaming in general for 20 years.

When Wizards first switched over to 3rd edition i didn't understand why ever one said it streamlined the rules and got rid of THAC0 which really annoyed a lot of gamer. It took me a few years but when I finally got the hand of 3rd Edition i really enjoyed it, but added quiet a few house rules to capture the fell i was going for.

Then they change again to 3.5 not all that big of a deal as there were no major changes that affected my game style. During this time I probably had my larges gaming group of 6-8 regular players two to three times a week. Most were experienced gamers but a few were new to the game.

Then when I got back from my latest overseas deployment I discover that a new edition of D&D was coming out. At first I saw no need then as time progressed I though wow some of the things you are going to be able to do as a DM look interesting. But after its release I looked though the PH and the DMG and though that it was utter garbage. I refuse to run a 4th Edition game or even consider to play in a 4th Edition game. I would go back to AD&D before playing 4th Edition.

that is just my two cents on Wizards of the Coast. By the way i own every 3rd/3.5 Edition book put out by WotC minus a very few and haven't bought crap from them since the switch over.

 

[DimitriX]

WotC is on their second printing of PHB2. PHB1 is currently on its 4th printing according to Greg Leeds, CEO of WotC. Now I don't know how many books are printed in one go, but considering that the PHB 1 can be found at Barnes & Noble and Borders along with FLGS, I'd imagine it's a substantial number. And any game book that breaks into the Wall Street Journal's 10 bestsellers list is no slouch in sales either. I'm not sure many (if any) other game companies can make the same boast.

We have done three reprints of the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook, and Player’s Handbook 2 has just gone back to press for a second printing. PH2 debuted at #4 on the Wall Street Journal’s best-sellers list, and #28 on USA Today’s list. By any measure, 4th Edition has been a great success and will continue to attract new players.

I've heard all that before. I was commenting only on what I've seen and experienced for myself. Personally, I wouldn't trust what Greg Leeds said. First, he didn't say much in his interview any way. And, I've always wondered that if 4e was selling so well, then why did WotC have to fire all those people back in December? If they are truly having to reprint and reprint books and they are so high on the best seller lists, then shouldn't they be hiring more people instead of laying off some of their top people?

 

[Demetrio]

Personally, I wouldn't trust what Greg Leeds said

Well what he said is easily verifiable. Check the relevant publication.

I don't care whether WotC do well or badly. But all companies will talk up their sales etc to an extent. And laying off staff is not necessarily a sign of a company in trouble. it may simply be cost-cutting because they feel their staff is unnecessarily bloated. It costs to make people redundant so it's either an 'emergency' measure or it's simply aimed at making the company more profitale going forward. I suspect the latter. And i also suspect that's why they want control of pdf distribution. So they can control it. Nothing more sinster than that.

 

[flatscan]

Well what he said is easily verifiable. Check the relevant publication.

Exactly. You may not trust the CEO of WotC (not saying I blame you, a CEO for a corporation is likely to spin anything in the companies favor) but unless you think the Wall Street Journal is lying too, the numbers say 4e is selling quite well.

 

[Hervé]

I've heard all that before. I was commenting only on what I've seen and experienced for myself. Personally, I wouldn't trust what Greg Leeds said. First, he didn't say much in his interview any way. And, I've always wondered that if 4e was selling so well, then why did WotC have to fire all those people back in December? If they are truly having to reprint and reprint books and they are so high on the best seller lists, then shouldn't they be hiring more people instead of laying off some of their top people?

It may work that way in comics books, but not with real life economics. WotC belongs to Hasbro, which is one of the world's largest toy company along with Mattel. These large companies are struck by the financial crisis as much as anyone else, leading to drastic staff restrictions.

DD4 is selling quite well but it's just a drop in the ocean for Hasbro. Actually, they don't care much about niche markets like RPGs or CCGs (remember they got Magic too). They don't even really care about WotC.
They're just keeping these products in their catalog because of the license potential (movies, video games and all), not because they're making big money on it.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Greetings, all!
I've been reading many, many threads on the intrawebs about this new faux pas on the part of WotC, and it only mildly ticks me off as I had the sense to DL my stuff long before this from drivethru and rpgnow. Why they did it, I cannot fathom, but it is going to hurt, rather than help, them, IMNSHO.

The good that has come of this thus far is that other publishers have been offering deep discounts (like Eden Studios, mentioned above) to disgruntled consumers, and I for one am glad that they did: I've been able to pick up several RPG rulebooks very cheap from Eden because of their initiative. Thanks, guys!

Will it hurt other games, like Conan or Traveller? Probably not. So I don't think people on the MG forums should fret.

Good gaming!

 

[decker423]

I've stayed out of this for quiet a while now but i figured i'd voice my opinion now. I've been a DM/GM for nearly 10 years now and gaming in general for 20 years.

When Wizards first switched over to 3rd edition i didn't understand why ever one said it streamlined the rules and got rid of THAC0 which really annoyed a lot of gamer. It took me a few years but when I finally got the hand of 3rd Edition i really enjoyed it, but added quiet a few house rules to capture the fell i was going for.

Then they change again to 3.5 not all that big of a deal as there were no major changes that affected my game style. During this time I probably had my larges gaming group of 6-8 regular players two to three times a week. Most were experienced gamers but a few were new to the game.

Then when I got back from my latest overseas deployment I discover that a new edition of D&D was coming out. At first I saw no need then as time progressed I though wow some of the things you are going to be able to do as a DM look interesting. But after its release I looked though the PH and the DMG and though that it was utter garbage. I refuse to run a 4th Edition game or even consider to play in a 4th Edition game. I would go back to AD&D before playing 4th Edition.

that is just my two cents on Wizards of the Coast. By the way i own every 3rd/3.5 Edition book put out by WotC minus a very few and haven't bought crap from them since the switch over.

Here here. You and I are exactly the same on the sentiment. In my area (upper east TN), almost everyone has dropped 4th ed. and returned to 3.5 D&D.
Some of my friends have the theory that 4th ed. D&D was created to go more "along the lines" of computer rpgs and to bring gamers over from the computer gaming community (I've always been a table-top player).

Thanks for your service, I did mine in OIF III.

 

[Sutek]

The WSJ list is a weekly list. So the sales were fantastic for a week and they got on the list. Great. It's also not a non-fiction book, so I say somebody is allowing it into the category erroniously simply because it's (a) not a novel and (b) it's a hard cover book. They also are only showing which books sell the fastest, and that is based on (a) large sellers' data and (b) `how quickly those sellers sold that book in that one week.

It's marketting.

If a book sells 100 copies a week for four decades, it's not going to be on a best seller list, but a book that sells 40,000 in one week and then drops to 3-4 a week (problably about the average FLGS rate) would get on the Best Seller list, but not be as successful a book because subsequent sales are lower. Read this article, but specifically the following from it:

These days, what best-seller lists are most likely to reflect is the amount of money spent to publicize the books that wind up on them. Superstores now allow publishers to pay to place a book up front or in the window or to display advertising. That, plus an author tour or appearance on national TV shows, can propel readers into stores fast enough to get a book on the list. Word-of-mouth or good reviews don't generate the dramatic concentrated sales required.

...which WOTC did in spades with the stands, online animations, TV commercials, full page ads in every mag and comic book they could find...you name it. They hyped 4th edition and it sold well in that week, and ended up 14th on the WSJ list....the week it was released.

Big deal.


WOTC won't show us hard numbers, but the evidence is apparent. They didnt'cut off 3rd party on-line sales of 4rg edition stuff...they cut off 3rd party sales of EVERYTHING, meaning 3.X edition stuff is (a) still selling well enough that (b) it's cutting into sales and prfit margin of 4th edition, I suspect. They want to regain control of all 3.X to market it as "D&D classic" exclusively from them, and it'll probably be expensive and sold in chunks rather than in a more original format (as printed, in other words).

Wait and see... :wink:

 

[flatscan]

...which WOTC did in spades with the stands, online animations, TV commercials, full page ads in every mag and comic book they could find...you name it. They hyped 4th edition and it sold well in that week, and ended up 14th on the WSJ list....the week it was released.

That's Player's Handbook 2. The first 4e Player's Handbook was on the very same list, not to mention in the top 10 of Amazon's bestseller's list. I don't know about you, but I saw considerably less advertising for PHB 2 than for PHB 1 and it still broke into a list that traders pay attention to. This is good for the gaming industry as a whole. It'll attract investors to Hasbro and WotC, quite possibly to other companies as well. I forget, who owns White Wolf these days?

Big deal.

It is. What other gaming company can make the same claim to be on either the WSJ or Amazon's lists? Mongoose? White Wolf even?

WOTC won't show us hard numbers, but the evidence is apparent.

Uh huh, and what game publishing company will show you hard numbers? It's not a conspiracy man, they just have no reason to give that kind of information to non-shareholders.

They didnt'cut off 3rd party on-line sales of 4rg edition stuff...they cut off 3rd party sales of EVERYTHING, meaning 3.X edition stuff is (a) still selling well enough that (b) it's cutting into sales and prfit margin of 4th edition, I suspect. They want to regain control of all 3.X to market it as "D&D classic" exclusively from them, and it'll probably be expensive and sold in chunks rather than in a more original format (as printed, in other words).

Wow, those are some serious jumps in logic you made there. They cut off sales of everything PDF with a claim of preventing privacy. It's called protecting your IP. Is it a smart move? Probably not. But I would wager WotC sales of PDFs is miniscule compared to their book sales. Can't prove it, because like you say, no hard numbers until Hasbro's annual report comes out for 2009. Best comparison you can do for now is compare Hasbro's Annual Report from 2000 to 2008. But those numbers are for Hasbro as a whole. The thing is, compared to Transformers, Dungeons & Dragons and WotC is a drop in the bucket.

Wait and see... :wink:

Indeed. D&D is (still) the majority of the tabletop role-playing game industry. You won't see as many copies of Vampire, Shadowrun or Dark Heresy in a Barnes & Noble or Borders as a number of PHBs, DMGs, MMs, and adventures. And you won't see any copies of Conan. It's telling that those two major book retailers keep a wide range of D&D products in stock at all their locations.

 

[Sutek]

Nobody said WOTC is going to fold. I'm not taking it that far, but I think it's obvious that a sudden concern over supposed IP regulation at the beginning of the next major marketting phase of this game reeks of internal profit concerns, full stop.

Put it another way (although I think someone else already did), if 4th edition is doing gangbusters sales, then whu be concerned atbout 3.X content? Shouldn't be a reason, even if 3rd party sellers are the ones distributing it. I mean, they weren't selling old 3.X PHBs at original retail price; it was all cheaper by far, counting on quantity to gain any margin of profit for RPGNow or whomever. The sales of brand new content submitted by the masses under OGL is far more profittable because there's no overhead; no need to re-type ot make scans, etc.

You're also totally missing the point aboutth ebest seller lists. You say you saw considerably less marketting for the PHB2, but all 4th edition content up to this point has been telling us "PHB2 is coming, just you wait." 4th edition material itself is the advertisement and marketting for upcoming product, which I've complained about all along. Marketing and cruch are so interconnected that they admit to selling people incolmplete rules in the first place. Yeah, Mongoose comes up with theri supplements too, but they didn't put out Conan 2nd edition with marketting stating "there's other classes and feats too, but they're coming later".

Did you read that article? Traders don't pay attention to best seller lists other than to see what sold the most rapidly that week. It's more of a confirmation of marketting strategy on initial release of a product than it is a measure of the quality of the product. There's a weight loss book in spot 13, right about PHB2, but it didn't change the world either, and we're only concerned with PHB2 being on that list because it has to do with our hobby. You're implying that the WSJ best seller list spot #14 is an indication that the PHB2 somehow sold well, but the article I linked to explains that it simply sold 14th fastest that week.

Yes...big deal.

No other gaming company can (or likely wants) that same recognition. Most game companies plan marketting on reletively smaller print run versus consistent sales numbers. Only a marketting juggernaut like WOTC could manage to get so much exposure that their product sold enough to get on a best seller list, because it's an engineered and expected result. They calculate marketting cost versus return, and if the posters and ads and commercials sell 10,000 units, that's all the need to break even or have a satisfying sales opener. Then the product becomes it;s own marketting, through similarly styles and organized books and thinkgs like color coded spines and releases of campaing books and that sort of thing.

Fact is, Paizo and Mongoose are doing well enough, so well in fact, without a massive marketting campaign that there are thousands of people on this forum who buy their product via nothing more than word of mouth, and have produced three edition of Conan, two of B5 RPG and many other RPG products...with zero marketting and consistant sales. They published COncn 2nd edition with no marketting to speak of save the chatter here, in the forums, and all of us doing thier work for them (and prously, I must add).

Like I said, wait and see. This is a 1st quarter strategy, and probably is a plan to take new action come 3rd or 4th quarter, but I suggest that we will see WOTC start marketting this older, 3.X PDF content from their website (a) within the next 6 months, (b) as D&D Classic product, and (c) we'll see cross compatable 3.X/4th adventure re-writes of old TSR material within 12 months, and third party sellers of old printed product will have to cease sales of it (through Amazon or wherever) within 12 months.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not a WOTC hater, I just don't buy into their marketting angle anymore. Pretty much since the D&D minis thing took off, they are fixated on "collectible gaming" and the current D&D4 strategy is that same approach - it's marketted as a "collectible RPG system" essentially, and new upgrades will be available soon.

I don't knock the tactic because it's what the demographic are used to, and it's selling books. I just think that ultimately, 3.X product is still consistantly selling, and it's going to become a qualiity over quantity battle for WOTC...one that's already begun with their pulling 3.X sales away from 3rd party retailers under the auspicice of IP protection.